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Old 11-24-2017, 10:07 PM   #1081
Mr.Coffee
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Originally Posted by Bawbag View Post
Look at the stars fans stand up for thier team.

Ours can't wait to get the #### out of the dome

They don't even stand up when we score
whoops wrong thread

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Old 11-24-2017, 10:12 PM   #1082
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I feel like the Flames are faced with 2 choices.
1) Keep Gulutzan but make personnel changes to bring in players that can adapt to his plan.
2) Recognize the talent you have and find a coaching staff that can adapt to them
3. Don’t panic and continue to build as the season progresses
I highly doubt management is considering either scenario you present
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Old 11-24-2017, 10:56 PM   #1083
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Gulutzan sucks. He can't even clear the puck out of the zone or take a hit to make a simple play.
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Old 11-24-2017, 10:58 PM   #1084
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Hop on CP After game loss, expect to see this thread at the top. Was not disappointed.

CP delivers the expected as always.
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Old 11-24-2017, 11:00 PM   #1085
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How much blame can the coach take when only 3 forwards are playing well right now (better than well actually) and the “best D on paper” are turnover machines.
Well, the 2 kids and the goat line was playing quite well, didn't score but they were cycling in the offensive zone and had few shot on goal. That's better than the 4th and 3M line. May be when the team has a one goal lead with less than 5 min to go, play the 3rd line instead of the 4th, especially the face off was in your own zone?
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Old 11-24-2017, 11:10 PM   #1086
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I don't know much about NHL coaching (other than I want Keenan back), but I recall that somewhat terrible show 'V', and, if there is anyone that's actually a lizard alien infiltrating humanity, it's GG. Just looking at him... you know he is a lizard. Also, we need more Huselius.
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Old 11-24-2017, 11:22 PM   #1087
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Not sure he's smart enough to be a lizard.
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Old 11-24-2017, 11:27 PM   #1088
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Not sure he's smart enough to be a lizard.
Ah, but that's what he wants you to think until he eats your liver.
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Old 11-25-2017, 02:24 AM   #1089
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Just like the games after the Detroit loss, the response from the team after the Columbus loss can say a lot about GG. So what happened after the last loss? 2 wins. What about the loss before? 2 wins. I will take a .600 record for the rest of the season. Overall a .571 w/l % (or .591 points %) is also good and I will take it.
Uh oh.

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Old 11-25-2017, 02:31 AM   #1090
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Nm

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Old 11-25-2017, 06:15 AM   #1091
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I think we can all agree, our D are playing like ####.

How much of this is because they just are ####, or is it on GG?
First of all they are not ****. They are two games removed from putting on an absolute defensive clinic on a very long road trip. They are one game removed from having, on average, a very good game especially by our whipping boy pairing of Brodie-Hamonic (before Brodie lost the puck in what any sane person would identify as nothing other than bad luck). The issue in the Columbus game was that our forwards could not generate offense against an elite blue line puttiv on a defensive clinic of their own. In the last four they had one legitimately bad game @ Dallas, magnified by facing a hard forehecking team with elite finishers.

Second GG may not deserve the blame for their defensive play but he sure as hell needs to be identified as the cause of their offensive regression, which has resulted in the forwards (outside of one Midas Touch line) being absolutely underwhelming. Last night aside, it is usually a lot easier to simplify your defensive game with a lead and the best way to get a lead is to contribute offensively. This team is not built to score three on five yet our Brent Sutter offense does exactly that. Good offenses play a five man cycle, we do not. We used to, under Hartley, but Treliving was so intent on gettig the anti-Hartley that Gulutzan came an neutered a defense core that should consistently be top 5 in point production with the Preds, Blues, and Lightning. The only points our D picks up under Gulutzan are ticky tack assists for Brodie on the PP. And those are literally frustrating plays where Brodie needs to shoot.

What we needed was a middle ground between Hartley and Brent Sutter. A coach who would:

- Give the defense a green light to attack the middle and pinch aggressively, while making sure our F3s were always sharp (Hartley)
- Force the centermen to play deeper in the defensive zone (B.Sutter/Gulutzan)
- Give the wingers the green light to go early if they saw an opportunity (Hartley)
- Force the skater to play an aggressive defensive game in the neutral zone (B.Sutter, supposed to be Gulutzan, but I am skeptical as they have played the same loose gaps under him they did under Hartley, except without the benefits those loose gaps afforded Bob in always having guys in shot blocking position because we don't block shots anymore)
- Shorten his bench when needed (Hartley)
- Be willing to make the tough decision on an underwhelming vet like Versteeg, Brouwer, or Bartkowski sooner than later (Hartley)
- Be willing to make the tough decision on playing an underwhelming prospect aged player like Kulak, Bennett, Andersson, Familton, Jankowski (Hartley)

I don't believe I am asking for the impossible, as I have seen this sort of mix I describe succeed, recently under the Mike Sullivan Penguins and Lindy Ruff's version of the Stars that were a Lehtonen collapse away from the WCF. There were things that structurally needed changing, and there were things that, independent of those others, needed to be kept the same. Hartley was really, really close to the right coach for this group except for how he handled certain situations without the puck.

But Tre wanted the other extreme from Bob. It resulted in a team that plays a very forward-scoring dependent style, except we don't have the firepower (pure shooters of the James Neal vein) to work. We have forwards with the hockey sense, vision, and compete level to make a cycle work if we get guys like Stone, Brodie, Hamilton, Giordano, Kulak, Hamonic, Kylington, Andersson sneaking into the dangerous areas.

But Gulutzan's ask of the defense is to stand at or behind the blue lines staying at home. It's a waste. It magnifies their lesser defensive games because they don't do anything at the other end. It makes our forwards cycle until a goalie gets to make an easy save, even backups can stop a shot in the slot if they know it's coming and the finisher is not Sean Monahan.

But yes, Gulutzan isn't to blame for a random stretch where our defense coughed up the puck more than usual. I don't think that is a long term issue and I don't think this defense is especially bad defensively, even if they are not as good as the Hurricanes, Ducks, or Blue Jackets defensively. I'd however argue that our defense has less options when they are catching pucks in the corners from Smith than when they are collecting them in stride, but I don't have supporting evidence - it's just my opinion. I do like puck handling goalies and have seen the benefits that Holtby, Price, Rinne, Bishop, and before them Brodeur/Roy bring. But maybe Gulutzan's tweaks to the system were too much accomodation for Smith. I am fine with Smith making a stretch pass or going glass and out or finding a winger, but having him slow the puck down and throw suicide passes at our defensemen in the corners only works with Giordano because Giordano is probably the best player in the NHL not named Drew Doughty or Victor Hedman in that kind of situation.

He is to blame for:

- Versteeg-X-Brouwer being force fed down our throats in crunch time. They cost us the Stars game. Not the defense.
- the slow and non-threatening transition game this team plays
- the inevitible moment when Borderline AHLer Matt Bartkowski draws back in for Everyday NHLer Kulak (I pray it isn't tonight) and costs us another game with his awful passing, positioning, stick, and general hockeyIQ
- The Backlund and Jankowski lines' futile cycling action playing 3 on 5
- Bennett's steady decline from an important core piece to a Pray-He-Doesn't-Bust bottom 6er
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Last edited by GranteedEV; 11-25-2017 at 07:48 AM.
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Old 11-25-2017, 06:19 AM   #1092
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Gg=ng.
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Old 11-25-2017, 09:16 AM   #1093
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There is a lot of mediocrity in across the league this season. I feel this is a year a team like the Flames could jump out in front and challenge for a conference title or even Presidents Trophy. Unfortunately that's simply not in the cards with the current head coach who is undoubtably a tier two coach. There's no doubt in my mind that with a better coach this team is good enough to go head to head with the Blues for tops in the conference so it's a real shame that such an opportunity is being wasted as they don't come along often. Has to be tough especially for Burke who didn't pick Gulutzan and probably knows the opportunity being wasted. He can't step on Treliving's toes so it's amazing he's been able to keep all the hairs of that big mop on his head as this has to be tough to watch for him.

I know the glass half full people will cling to the winning streaks but to me the guy is forever searching for that answer to a mathematical equation that doesn't translate to on ice greatness. He simply does too much stuff that goes against the grain (rolling all four lines late into games is his signature) and it's kind of ######ing the potential of the team. There's no doubt in my mind you could sit across a table from him and get blown away by some of his philosophical hockey talk but there's more to leading men that fancy talk as I simply don't see the leadership intangibles required to get the players to play like they know there will be consequences for selfish or careless play. This is by far the most careless hockey team I have ever seen. The casualness they turn over the puck is astonishing but that's what happens when players know there aren't going to be consequences for their actions.

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Old 11-25-2017, 09:17 AM   #1094
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Quote:
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How much blame can the coach take when only 3 forwards are playing well right now (better than well actually) and the “best D on paper” are turnover machines.
I think it can be quite a bit. When much of the team is struggling and under-performing expectations, it makes perfect sense to ask if the systems, style of play, or personnel utilization don't match the talent.

It isn't necessarily that, but the coaching is definitely one of the more plausible culprits.
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Old 11-25-2017, 09:38 AM   #1095
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Originally Posted by Enoch Root View Post
I think it can be quite a bit. When much of the team is struggling and under-performing expectations, it makes perfect sense to ask if the systems, style of play, or personnel utilization don't match the talent.

It isn't necessarily that, but the coaching is definitely one of the more plausible culprits.
You may well be right. But no doubt in my mind this is the coach who will be here all year long. He is Treliving’s choice and even if Flames stay on playoff bubble all year long, he will be given the chance to see it through.
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Old 11-25-2017, 09:57 AM   #1096
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Originally Posted by Wyguy View Post
I think we can all agree, our D are playing like ####.

How much of this is because they just are ####, or is it on GG?
Yes, GG controls the minds of the defensemen and when they practice he tells them to play like crap.

Cmon man, use some logic.
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Old 11-25-2017, 10:00 AM   #1097
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Brodie was a dominant defenceman with a positive plus minus before GG took over and forced him to the left side. Since that move he has been turnover prone and his plus minus had been deep in negative territory.

Someone in management or the coaching staff has to tell GG about this. He has to give Brodie a try on the right side and see if he plays better.

The other change is also taking him away from Gio. I understand that they want to shelter Hamilton by pairing him with Gio but even with him now, Hamilton still sucks. It's time to try Brodano again. Trade Hamilton for big package that includes a solid left side defenceman (doesn't have to be a guy who generates a lot of offense, just get a guy who plays a simple game and doesn't get scored on).

Even if not Brodano then put him back with Stone, he played at least a little better. Not that I think Hamonic has been bad, I think he's really picked up his game sine coming back, Brodie is the one who has been dragging him down.
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Old 11-25-2017, 10:11 AM   #1098
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Yes, GG controls the minds of the defensemen and when they practice he tells them to play like crap.

Cmon man, use some logic.
Garbage like this post is causing this forum to become unreadable. Do you actually think anyone believes this?

It's totally fair to question the coach and systems if players are making uncharacteristic mistakes on a regular basis. Nobody thinks GG is out there telling them to do it. But haven't you ever been in a situation where a process dictating a course of action went against your natural intuition or years of experience, resulting in a mistake that you wouldn't have otherwise made? That's the sign of a bad system, or at least a system that isn't concordant with the personnel applying it.

Blame whoever you want but I am not convinced that 5 out of 6 good to very good defensemen and an entire bottom 6 all miraculously forgot how to play hockey at the same time. There's something deeper at work here and I have a pretty good hunch what it might be.

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Old 11-25-2017, 10:16 AM   #1099
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Glen Gulutzan can't cut the mustard plain and simple. Won't get out of the first round with him in charge.

Hoping Trotz becomes available and the Flames jump on him.
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Old 11-25-2017, 10:30 AM   #1100
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Garbage like this post is causing this forum to become unreadable. Do you actually think anyone believes this?
.
Sadly garbage posts lead to more garbage posts
Do you think the post he was replying to was any better? It didn’t exactly offer any deep insight or rationale perspective
Garbage in garbage out
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