Amazon planning second headquarters with 50,000 jobs

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Roughneck

Breaking news: Local mayor pumps up city as choice of multi-billion dollar headquarters.

he basically said it was down to 2 cities...when Calgary probably isn't even in the top 20. Seems like he is stretching the truth just a little.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

Which is why I think people who are in favour of a guaranteed income need to really start considering other options instead of pushing for a stop gap “solution”. Especially since it could be argued a universal income could over the long term actually accelerate the overall decline in quality of life.

I don't see any other humanitarian options for a post-labour society. Which ones do you see?

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by SebC

I don't see any other humanitarian options for a post-labour society. Which ones do you see?

Firstly I don’t believe labour will ever become completely obsolete.(at least not in our lifetimes) One alternative option that I think should be seriously looked at is reducing the fulltime basic work week from 40 hours to 32.

[corporatejay]

yes, just like prisons, except you get paid to be there and can leave when you want, but yeah, same thing

[GordonBlue]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

Firstly I don’t believe labour will ever become completely obsolete.(at least not in our lifetimes) One alternative option that I think should be seriously looked at is reducing the fulltime basic work week from 40 hours to 32.

don't get how that would work. price of goods doesn't decrease, so not sure how I could afford to survive making 20% less. guess working 32 hours per week at my main job would give me more options for my second job?

[KevanGuy]

Get with the program Gordon, we'd all get paid the same to work less!

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by GordonBlue

don't get how that would work. price of goods doesn't decrease, so not sure how I could afford to survive making 20% less. guess working 32 hours per week at my main job would give me more options for my second job?

The price of many goods has been decreasing for decades: clothes, electronics, appliances, furniture, digital entertainment, basically anything you can buy at WalMart - or Amazon. The price of some other things, namely real estate, has not.

Nobody thinks they could survive making 20 per cent less. And obviously most people are wrong about that - plenty of people survive on 120k or 80k or 60k. The question is whether the affluent are willing to take a significant hit to their incomes, or would rather use that money on gated communities, private security, and bodyguards. Because those are significant expenses for people who live in countries where 60 per cent of people struggle to earn a living wage.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by GordonBlue

don't get how that would work. price of goods doesn't decrease, so not sure how I could afford to survive making 20% less. guess working 32 hours per week at my main job would give me more options for my second job?

Essentially you create demand for more workers by increasing the cost of having one worker work more. This is offset by the savings made by automation and the reduction in the number of human hours required to produce a good.

Essentially as we automate we create surplus. How this surplus is divided between the company, employees, and government needs to be determined. In industries where automation doesn't completely replace jobs reducing the work week makes sense. It doesnt work if a whole industry like transportation is replaced.

The problem is that global workers rights need to be balanced because increasing labour costs here just encourages offshoring of labour unless protectionist trade policies are established against nations with poor labour laws.

To me I prefer the increasing of corporate taxation as automation occurs to support a UBI over a reduction of a work week as it gives people a stable base from which to create rather than be a cog in an increasingly automated machine.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by GordonBlue

don't get how that would work. price of goods doesn't decrease, so not sure how I could afford to survive making 20% less. guess working 32 hours per week at my main job would give me more options for my second job?

I’m not talking about reducing incomes. As GGG somewhat touched on, the alternative for an employer(and anyone else earning income) is to have increased taxes to cover a UBI. People working less hours for the same money isn’t a radical concept. Nor is it unprecedented, a 40 hour work week wasn’t gifted to society and the same arguments that employers would not be able to afford the increased labour costs by capping the work week have been around since the days when people fought for(and won) a 40 hour work week.

Originally Posted by KevanGuy

Get with the program Gordon, we'd all get paid the same to work less!

Technically it’s no different than getting a raise to do the same work. There are a number of indirect savings in other areas that an employer can benefit from this as well, not to mention employees with a better quality of life are generally considered to be more productive at work.

[Weitz]

How many people work regular 40 hour weeks anymore? I mean sure if you work at a store or something thats open 9-5, but those aren't really the type of jobs were talking about are we?

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by Weitz

How many people work regular 40 hour weeks anymore? I mean sure if you work at a store or something thats open 9-5, but those aren't really the type of jobs were talking about are we?

The adoption of a 40 hour regular work week didn’t abolish people working more than 40 hours, so I’m confident that a 32 hour work week wouldn’t either. The legislation of overtime pay certainly forced employers to restructure their business models though.

[Azure]

Of course all of this is dependent around the argument that automation will lead to a net loss in jobs. I don't believe that will be true.

EDIT: A good example would be German manufacturing over the last 20-30 years. Many businesses have become highly automated replacing the need for manual labor. In comparison to similar North American companies the German ones would be years ahead. They handled that change in the workforce by getting more high school students involved in the trades at a younger age. Many large firms offer apprenticeship programs STRAIGHT out of high school. In comparison to North America where we have kids going in a for an 'Arts' degree and wondering why they are not employable when they graduate this is a big reason why Europe is years ahead of us.

North America is going to have a severe shortage of skilled labor in the next 20-30 years. The job market for red seal electricians alone is going to seriously deplete as the average age of electricians is nearing retirement. Instead of adapting to this change we continue pushing our kids into getting non-employable degrees. The trades are looked at as a second tier job that nobody wants. I have personally heard teachers and guidance counselors telling students to not go the trade route because who wants to be a lowly plumber?

We deserve every problem we are going to have in the next few decades when it comes to higher levels of poverty, shrinking wages and more unemployable morons graduating with their 4 year degree in 'how to be completely useless to society.' We should be subsidizing NOT post secondary in general, but actual post secondary programs that lead to sustainable jobs. Half the bloody problem is giving out student loans for kids to get degrees that serve no purpose for anyone.

[rotten42]

Originally Posted by Azure

Of course all of this is dependent around the argument that automation will lead to a net loss in jobs. I don't believe that will be true.

EDIT: A good example would be German manufacturing over the last 20-30 years. Many businesses have become highly automated replacing the need for manual labor. In comparison to similar North American companies the German ones would be years ahead. They handled that change in the workforce by getting more high school students involved in the trades at a younger age. Many large firms offer apprenticeship programs STRAIGHT out of high school. In comparison to North America where we have kids going in a for an 'Arts' degree and wondering why they are not employable when they graduate this is a big reason why Europe is years ahead of us.

North America is going to have a severe shortage of skilled labor in the next 20-30 years. The job market for red seal electricians alone is going to seriously deplete as the average age of electricians is nearing retirement. Instead of adapting to this change we continue pushing our kids into getting non-employable degrees. The trades are looked at as a second tier job that nobody wants. I have personally heard teachers and guidance counselors telling students to not go the trade route because who wants to be a lowly plumber?

We deserve every problem we are going to have in the next few decades when it comes to higher levels of poverty, shrinking wages and more unemployable morons graduating with their 4 year degree in 'how to be completely useless to society.' We should be subsidizing NOT post secondary in general, but actual post secondary programs that lead to sustainable jobs. Half the bloody problem is giving out student loans for kids to get degrees that serve no purpose for anyone.

This is the argument I get into with my ex wife in regards to my son. She says he HAS to go to U of C and take business. He has always said he would like to own his own business like his grandfather. I tell him he should at least look into the trades. Keep his options open.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

The adoption of a 40 hour regular work week didn’t abolish people working more than 40 hours, so I’m confident that a 32 hour work week wouldn’t either. The legislation of overtime pay certainly forced employers to restructure their business models though.

Except all these classifications are not eligible for overtime according to the code. How did these come to be?

Non-eligible employees
The following employees aren’t eligible for overtime hours and overtime pay in Alberta:

• managers, supervisors and those employed in a confidential capacity
• farm workers
• professionals, including agrologists, architects, certified or chartered accountants, chiropractors, dentists, denturists, engineers, geoscientists, information systems professionals, lawyers, students-at-law, optometrists, podiatrists, psychologists and veterinarians
• salespersons of automobiles, trucks, buses, farm machinery, road construction equipment, heavy duty equipment, manufactured homes or residential homes
• salespersons who solicit orders, principally outside of the employer’s place of business, who are fully or partly paid by commission (this does not apply to route salespersons) Read more about salesperson commission pay plans.
• licensed salespersons of real estate and securities
• licensed insurance salespersons who are paid entirely by commission income
• salespersons who are at least 16 years old and are engaged in direct selling for licensed direct sellers. Read more about direct sellers.
• licensed land agents
• extras in a film or video production
• counselors or instructors at an educational or recreational camp that is operated on a charitable or not-for-profit basis for children, persons with disabilities, or religious purposes
• domestic employees (these employees are not exempt from sections 18 and 19 of the Code concerning rest periods and days of rest). Read more about domestic employees.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by Azure

Of course all of this is dependent around the argument that automation will lead to a net loss in jobs. I don't believe that will be true.

EDIT: A good example would be German manufacturing over the last 20-30 years. Many businesses have become highly automated replacing the need for manual labor. In comparison to similar North American companies the German ones would be years ahead. They handled that change in the workforce by getting more high school students involved in the trades at a younger age. Many large firms offer apprenticeship programs STRAIGHT out of high school. In comparison to North America where we have kids going in a for an 'Arts' degree and wondering why they are not employable when they graduate this is a big reason why Europe is years ahead of us.

North America is going to have a severe shortage of skilled labor in the next 20-30 years. The job market for red seal electricians alone is going to seriously deplete as the average age of electricians is nearing retirement. Instead of adapting to this change we continue pushing our kids into getting non-employable degrees. The trades are looked at as a second tier job that nobody wants. I have personally heard teachers and guidance counselors telling students to not go the trade route because who wants to be a lowly plumber?

We deserve every problem we are going to have in the next few decades when it comes to higher levels of poverty, shrinking wages and more unemployable morons graduating with their 4 year degree in 'how to be completely useless to society.' We should be subsidizing NOT post secondary in general, but actual post secondary programs that lead to sustainable jobs. Half the bloody problem is giving out student loans for kids to get degrees that serve no purpose for anyone.

The lifestyle of a tradesperson is a little different in a place like Germany though. In Germany, you likely either live and work in a very affordable major city or you live within an hour of a metro area of 1+ million people. You're also likely unionized and have the benefits and protections that come with that.

I think you'd find more Canadians getting into trades if the end result was working inside in a manufacturing facility near an affordable major population center rather than working in the middle of nowhere doing resource extraction or working outside in the winter doing construction.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

Except all these classifications are not eligible for overtime according to the code. How did these come to be?

Non-eligible employees
The following employees aren’t eligible for overtime hours and overtime pay in Alberta:

• managers, supervisors and those employed in a confidential capacity
• farm workers
• professionals, including agrologists, architects, certified or chartered accountants, chiropractors, dentists, denturists, engineers, geoscientists, information systems professionals, lawyers, students-at-law, optometrists, podiatrists, psychologists and veterinarians
• salespersons of automobiles, trucks, buses, farm machinery, road construction equipment, heavy duty equipment, manufactured homes or residential homes
• salespersons who solicit orders, principally outside of the employer’s place of business, who are fully or partly paid by commission (this does not apply to route salespersons) Read more about salesperson commission pay plans.
• licensed salespersons of real estate and securities
• licensed insurance salespersons who are paid entirely by commission income
• salespersons who are at least 16 years old and are engaged in direct selling for licensed direct sellers. Read more about direct sellers.
• licensed land agents
• extras in a film or video production
• counselors or instructors at an educational or recreational camp that is operated on a charitable or not-for-profit basis for children, persons with disabilities, or religious purposes
• domestic employees (these employees are not exempt from sections 18 and 19 of the Code concerning rest periods and days of rest). Read more about domestic employees.

I’m not sure I understand how this is relevant? I think it’s also worth mentioning that in some circumstances employers are required to pay overtime to employees in some of those positions.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by rotten42

This is the argument I get into with my ex wife in regards to my son. She says he HAS to go to U of C and take business. He has always said he would like to own his own business like his grandfather. I tell him he should at least look into the trades. Keep his options open.

I know of quite a few people making north of $150k per year in the trades. Obviously there is a lot of skill and dedication required, but the money they make is pretty great.

I would never send someone to go take a business degree in this economy. The demand for skilled trades is exploding right now. Push more kids into those jobs and start subsidizing their education.

But no, we will continue pushing that useless Liberal Arts degree.

[Jason14h]

I think if people in the trades actually came to schools and talked about the job growth and money it would change a lot of opinions. Plus it is fairly easy to be your own boss/start your own business in a trade.

Lots of people don't even believe the $$ trades make, and with the shortages it is only going to go up as supply falls.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

I think if people in the trades actually came to schools and talked about the job growth and money it would change a lot of opinions. Plus it is fairly easy to be your own boss/start your own business in a trade.

Lots of people don't even believe the $$ trades make, and with the shortages it is only going to go up as supply falls.

I think people are more concerned with the working conditions associated with working in trades. In my experience the general perception is that ticketed tradespeople on average earn a good income.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by opendoor

The lifestyle of a tradesperson is a little different in a place like Germany though. In Germany, you likely either live and work in a very affordable major city or you live within an hour of a metro area of 1+ million people. You're also likely unionized and have the benefits and protections that come with that.

I think you'd find more Canadians getting into trades if the end result was working inside in a manufacturing facility near an affordable major population center rather than working in the middle of nowhere doing resource extraction or working outside in the winter doing construction.

The reason worker conditions are setup like that in Germany is because they realized this problem 30 years ago and implemented the changes required in order to be successful. Outside of the climate there is no reason we can't offer the same worker protections. And at the end of the day people will accept working outside if it pays the bills.

Our problem is nobody is even getting into the trades, nor do we have government programs to encourage it or school programs to support it. Instead we have teachers who actively campaign to get our kids into going for useless degrees where they won't be employable once they graduate.

That has to change or North America is going to keep suffering.