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Old 10-28-2017, 11:29 AM   #401
Erick Estrada
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What about the systems is working fine? Please be specific because I hear this a lot from arm chair coaches.
Sure the system may be theoretically fine but the amount of time the players adhere to it is few and far between. Either the system is beyond the grasp of the players or they simply lack the discipline required to adhere to it. One way or another this has to get sorted out and you can't trade the team so either the system has to get tweaked or there needs to me more consequences handed out than the same few rotational players being used as the example.
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Old 10-28-2017, 11:29 AM   #402
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Totally agree that Iginla is useless and that is why he doesn't have a contract. Flames have the right veteran presence like Brouwer and Stajan who deserve their contract because they are way better players and leaders then Iginla.
I would trade Brouwer or Stajan for Iginla in a heartbeat, even without Iggy's intangibles he out scored both of these bums last year. My belief is Iginla doesn't have a contract because he won't play for cheap not because he's useless
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Old 10-28-2017, 11:33 AM   #403
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You go google GG on talking hockey and systems or even listen to him address the problems with this group right now and if you know anything about hockey you can tell he is a real smart hockey coach. Four coaches who think highly of GG are Torts, Babcock, Hitchcock, and Quenneville. I think they know a little about coaching hockey.
There is no question that he is a real smart hockey mind. And frankly, when he talked about the style he wanted to play, I was all for it.

But this is a results business. And smart doesn't win anything.

Also, even Scotty Bowman was fired. Several times.
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Old 10-28-2017, 11:34 AM   #404
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I bet Iginla doesn't care about money anymore, probably resting first half to play in the olympics then choose a team that looks to be a contender to join after that for one more shot.
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Old 10-28-2017, 11:36 AM   #405
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I was at the game today. What really stood out was how much Stajan, Glass, and Brower were on the ice. You cannot win a game if your 4th line is your main line. Janko, Bennet, and Versteeg probably had about 8 minutes of ice time. GG is too passive and right now playing as if he is under imminent threat of getting fired.
I don't understand why Brouwer is playing on the power play with Gaudreau. It just doesn't work or at least it wasn't working last night when I saw them together.
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Old 10-28-2017, 11:38 AM   #406
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Well, as a STH, I have been to 4 of the 5 games so far....
I've only been a STH for 4 years, so I don't have the same anguish/dollars spent ratio as you - but I have all the same concerns.

This is bad hockey. I think it's related to GG's system, and it's frustrating. I got on the anti-GG boat last year, but hey wouldn't you know - a 10 game win streak (where your goalie stands on his head) makes a fan smile from ear to ear and forget an awful lot. To come back into this season and see extremely similar failures, it's just a bummer.

GG's system is boring by design. It preaches equal play 5v5 (so, the 5v5 balances out to 0-0), and relies on the special teams to win/lose the game. It's why the 5v5 play is so boring - the team isn't allowed to take chances/play with pace. It's about that slow, methodical 5 man unit moving up the ice together and just crushing possession into the boards.

Now that I've seen this play out again in a similar, unentertaining fashion - I don't think I have the belief that even when things go right, that they'll ultimately work long-term under the current system/structure. At the best of times, we'll win some hockey games thanks to our special teams - and the rest of the time, our talent will get neutered during 5v5 play and leave us on the losing end of a lot of close games.

Last edited by ComixZone; 10-28-2017 at 11:41 AM.
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Old 10-28-2017, 11:53 AM   #407
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A lack of confidence on offence is the biggest problem right now. Players over passing and not shooting when they have a legitimate shot on goal. I can't remember the number of times cursed when they had a shot but instead tried to make the prefect play.
No you have that all wrong it's coaching.

Gulutzan is telling them to be apprehensive and tight. He wants them nervous and really unsure of themselves at all time. If they take a shot on a two on one in practice he blows the whistle and dresses them down for not floating the puck into the corner to nobody in particular.
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Old 10-28-2017, 11:55 AM   #408
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No you have that all wrong it's coaching.

Gulutzan is telling them to be apprehensive and tight. He wants them nervous and really unsure of themselves at all time. If they take a shot on a two on one in practice he blows the whistle and dresses them down for not floating the puck into the corner to nobody in particular.
Is this the kind of quality thought you put in your game takes too?
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Old 10-28-2017, 11:56 AM   #409
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Obviously Gulutzan isn't telling them that, but if what he is telling them has them so tight that they are thinking too much, what's the difference?
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Old 10-28-2017, 11:56 AM   #410
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Is this the kind of quality thought you put in your game takes too?
Jesus, you don't have to be an ass.
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Old 10-28-2017, 11:58 AM   #411
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Is this the kind of quality thought you put in your game takes too?
Thanks man ...

Good to know writing 82 game stories a year into the wee hours is so appreciated.

If this is how you deal with people that don't agree with you in your non web life you must be a real piece of work.
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Old 10-28-2017, 11:59 AM   #412
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Is this the kind of quality thought you put in your game takes too?
Speaking of quality of thought before posting....
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Old 10-28-2017, 12:02 PM   #413
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Gulutzan is telling them to be apprehensive and tight.
Not in those terms. But his message does lead to those things.

When he tells them things like

"Only play 50/50 Hockey"
"Play simple at home"
"Don't be cute at home"
"Play north south, not east west"
"only 5-8 foot passes"

These are all "negative" messages that cause guys to get away from their best hockey. Even his "Attack in fives" message slows the tempo down. I point to this interview of his messaging to Jankowski before his first game:



The messaging is not being delivered in a way where guys can play the system yet still play free. More simple messages that had less apprehension and tightness like "Attack hard, but backcheck hard too", "Get to rebounds and just go" and "Support and trust each other and attack" would probably have the team playing better, even if a few more blatant mistakes came along with it.
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Old 10-28-2017, 12:05 PM   #414
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No you have that all wrong it's coaching.

Gulutzan is telling them to be apprehensive and tight. He wants them nervous and really unsure of themselves at all time. If they take a shot on a two on one in practice he blows the whistle and dresses them down for not floating the puck into the corner to nobody in particular.
Let's be honest. Even the most ardent Gulutan defender must realize by now Gulutzan is almost compulsively rigid in his methodologies that there's very little leeway for the players to step outside the boundaries resulting in a robotic, emotionless squad. After a full season the same team is back to square one again and I have a hard time believing this group is all a bunch of idiots that can't grasp a system concept and to me it appears that creativity has been stifled to the point that the players simply cannot perform to their utmost levels. What we are seeing is what the system is creating.

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Old 10-28-2017, 12:06 PM   #415
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Bingo your game stories are much appreciated around here, trust me. I miss a lot of games working out of town and solely rely on them sometimes to get a sense of how a game went.
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Old 10-28-2017, 12:07 PM   #416
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Not in those terms. But his message does lead to those things.

When he tells them things like

"Only play 50/50 Hockey"
"Play simple at home"
"Don't be cute at home"
"Play north south, not east west"
"only 5-8 foot passes"

These are all "negative" messages that cause guys to get away from their best hockey. Even his "Attack in fives" message slows the tempo down. I point to this interview of his messaging to Jankowski before his first game:

The messaging is not being delivered in a way where guys can play the system yet still play free. More simple messages that had less apprehension and tightness like "Attack hard, but backcheck hard too", "Get to rebounds and just go" and "Support and trust each other and attack" would probably have the team playing better, even if a few more blatant mistakes came along with it.
Go back and look at the exit interviews from last year and specifically Versteeg.

Coaching staff has made hockey fun again.
This is like Chicago where players have a voice and an opinion.

The statements you are referring to are simplifying statements that you give to a tight team. It's the right thing to say.

You guys don't have to agree with me, but I see player execution issues all over the ice right now, and that's not coaching. This isn't Mike Keenan screaming at them, the media has been pointing out how wired Gulutzan is this week because he's showing emotion for the first time.

This isn't a team that has been brow beaten into nervousness.
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Old 10-28-2017, 12:08 PM   #417
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Let's be honest. Even the most ardent Gulutan defender must realize by now Gulutzan is almost compulsively rigid in his methodologies that there's very little leeway for the players to step outside the boundaries resulting in a robotic, emotionless squad.
That's the complete opposite impression to the one I have of his systems methodology.

He said in an interview that he tries to have systems in place merely as a guideline, but he wants his players to use their own creativity and game sense. That, however, is really contingent on the players themselves and they're not confident or are clutching their sticks too hard, and the results are suffering from it.
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Old 10-28-2017, 12:13 PM   #418
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That's the complete opposite impression to the one I have of his systems methodology.

He said in an interview that he tries to have systems in place merely as a guideline, but he wants his players to use their own creativity and game sense. That, however, is really contingent on the players themselves and if they're not confident or are clutching their sticks too hard, and the results are suffering from it.
Few players have really flourished under his system and if the players don't have confidence it's because they aren't confident in the system. If these guys really felt they just had to stick with the system and things will turn around that would happen but it's obvious by their play over the past year that they really haven't bought into Gulutzan to the point of no doubt. Hartley's system was flawed but the players bought in and when the goaltending could hold up it's end of the bargain there was no lead safe for opposing teams as the Flames felt confident if they executed in the 3rd period they would come back. When Gulutzan's flames get down or have a bad bounce go their way they look totally deflated and the hill ahead seems insurmountable. Outside of a couple of winning streaks this team really hasn't had the look of a confident team for the most of his tenure as Flames head coach.
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Old 10-28-2017, 12:13 PM   #419
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Thanks man ...

Good to know writing 82 game stories a year into the wee hours is so appreciated.

If this is how you deal with people that don't agree with you in your non web life you must be a real piece of work.
If you can't take snark, Bingo, don't dish snark.

Beyond that, it's rather amusing that, in a thread all about piling on coaching and management, you used one of the few posts that said nothing about the failures of coaching or management to get all defensive about it.

I mean, if you want to get all pissy about people attacking the coach, at least respond to the people attacking the coach. I'm not sure what you thought getting all passive aggressive on Dion's post was meant to accomplish.

Last edited by Resolute 14; 10-28-2017 at 12:17 PM.
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Old 10-28-2017, 12:15 PM   #420
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Go back and look at the exit interviews from last year and specifically Versteeg.

Coaching staff has made hockey fun again.
Are you really surprised that a guy who was a 3rd liner in most stops, including being down to a healthy scratch throughout the 2015 Playoffs, suddenly gets to play 1st Power Play and basically be a puck hog on said PP, as well as play on a line with a 20 year old skilled-grinder center regularly deferring to him, is suddenly having fun playing hockey again? Do you think Versteeg would have the same message if his usage were more like Sam Bennett, alternating spot minutes on the 2nd power play with Michael Frolik? If he were playing with Matt Stajan and Lance Bouma?
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