"Me Too"

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

Are you suggesting that discussing personal experiences of sexual harassment in this campaign is an attempt to gain status?

Most things people do on social media is an attempt to gain status and approval. Likes, thumbs, views, shares. The feelings of solidarity and in-group validation. We're status-seeking animals to our bones. So yes.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Most things people do on social media is an attempt to gain status and approval. Likes, thumbs, views, shares. The feelings of solidarity and in-group validation. We're status-seeking animals to our bones. So yes.

Solidarity is certainly part of the point.

The rest is profoundly tone-deaf and this really isn’t the place for you to yell at clouds social media again. You don’t really understand social media nor have you ever shown previously a coherent modern understanding of the human psyche, so perhaps it’s best to save your approach to the pulpit on this subject for another time, a time when it wouldn’t so obviously look like a mockery/diminishing of sexual assault victims.

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by GGG

Women harassed by Weinstein, women talk about harassment is talking about gun control after a mass shooting.

The flag one again is a little more interesting but again it more reinforces that the male voices intent is disruption. I think that the athletes protesting during the anthem are intentionally trying to amplify their voices through controversy by showing disrespect to a symbol.

So if your assertion through analogy is that the male voices are being amplified by using the #metoo movement that is what I take issue with. The causes and solutions aren't the same so the male discussion does take away from the female discussion.

And that assumes you think that male sharing is genuine. I know my gut reaction is to defend the gender by saying notallmen and womentoo but that is not productive to the discussion that is taking place.



I don't mean to say you are doing this AO but this post to me is where the reasons for men joining the metoo come from. Women are saying they are morally superior to men so I'm going to show them they are just as bad. And that does not move the conversation forward

My point wasn't really that the analogies I provided were more right, just that from different perspectives actions seem different. I just meant to cast doubt on the moral superiority of the arguments I had read by finding similar analogous situations from a contrasting political perspective. Those Trumpian perspectives I provided are so wrong and incomprehensible from a liberal point of view, but probably right to a bunch of his supporters.

Nonetheless, I do think that if an action is divisive it doesn't serve the best interests of a marginalised group that is in need of allies.

I also admit that I don't really buy into the #metoo campaign that much though. I live in a different culture in a different part of the world and for the most part I see American social media campaigns as shallow, self-aggrandizing and transient. I see them as ultimately trivialising what they are presented as supporting, because they reduce it to the flavour of the month and because they celebrate novelty and momentary impact with a very short memory. I also think a result of the desire to identify groups and champion them is that the real circumstances of those groups are often reduced to caricatures for the purpose of marketing a cause.

My interest is not in the least to challenge 'women saying they're morally superior to men'. I haven't seen that. I actually see a bunch of men posting as though they're morally superior to other men. Again, I'm not engaged in this in social media, but if people are seeing that men sharing #metoo experiences online are generally being accepted by women, well, good. That suggests women don't mind men sharing their experiences, which I think is positive.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

The rest is profoundly tone-deaf and this really isn’t the place for you to yell at clouds social media again. You don’t really understand social media nor have you ever shown previously a coherent modern understanding of the human psyche, so perhaps it’s best to save your approach to the pulpit on this subject for another time, a time when it wouldn’t so obviously look like a mockery/diminishing of sexual assault victims.

I know it can be tough to do when you're so worked up, but try to follow the thread. I responded to a comment about why men are trying to join the movement with an observation about human nature - universal human nature. I'm not mocking anything.

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by driveway

This is a false binary. It's also an opportunity to learn, and an opportunity to pracitce listening and empathy. Maybe you would group this under the category of "bonding."

Think of it similarly to making someone else's Mother's funeral about the loss of your own Mother. Yes, you're coming from a well-intentioned place. Yes your feeling and grief are valid. Yes there is quite obviously a place where you can come together and bond and through shared experience.

However, there is very clearly a line which can be crossed where you're taking someone else's "thing" and making it about yourself and that's not appropriate and is - in and of itself - divisive.

Considering the amount of discourse that has already taken place the challenges that women have had carving out spaces for themselves, and those spaces subsequently being appropriated by men, it is not at all suprising, nor should it be upsetting, that women are defensive of their space. They are deserving of their space and it is an opportunity for men to listen and learn when women declare a space 'theirs.'

The "Me Too" campagin is quite clearly a space for women. That men empathise and have shared experience is - tragically - good. You are right, it IS a way to bond. But the way to bond is not for men to try to enter the space on the same terms or in the same way women do, and it is right to call out men who do try to enter the space on those terms as being inappropriate.

By "an opportunity to bond, or an opportunity to be divisive" I didn't mean 'either ... or..." It wasn't intended as a binary. I agree that it is an opportunity to learn and to practise listening and empathy. I would count those as bonding.

I do disagree with you though that men who "try to enter the #metoo space" through sharing their own experience should be called out. Again, that emphasises differences rather than recognising common ground. Bridges must be built, and they are better built by extending from both sides.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

I know it can be tough to do when you're so worked up, but try to follow the thread. I responded to a comment about why men are trying to join the movement with an observation about human nature - universal human nature. I'm not mocking anything.

Upset? No, just following your unintellectual and tone-deaf argument.

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

We've cultivated a social environment where people gain status by expressing grievance. Is it really surprising that everyone wants to get in on the action?

What action? The action of saying #metoo? Pretty easy to follow you here. People gain status by expressing grievance, #metoo expresses grievance, others want to get in on “the action”

Originally Posted by Tinordi

Are you suggesting that discussing personal experiences of sexual harassment in this campaign is an attempt to gain status?

Seems like a straightforward question Cliff. Did you not understand?

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Most things people do on social media is an attempt to gain status and approval. Likes, thumbs, views, shares. The feelings of solidarity and in-group validation. We're status-seeking animals to our bones. So yes.

So, assuming you understood the fairly plain spoken question Tinordi asked, you’ve responded with “Yes” that discussing experiences of sexual harassment with #metoo attached is an attempt to gain status. Not sure where the distinction between man/woman came in on Tinordi’s question, but you pretty clearly called dismissed discussing sexual harassment as “the action” others want to get in on, and either purposefully or accidentally suggested that all discussion of sexual harassment in this campaign is an attempt to gain status, therefore diminishing and mocking victims.

I know it’s hard to understand questions when you’ve got a cloud to yell at, but do try.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

...and either purposefully or accidentally suggested that all discussion of sexual harassment in this campaign is an attempt to gain status, therefore diminishing and mocking victims.

You're the one who's suggesting that seeking social status is something worthy of mockery, not me. It's something everyone does every day.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

You're the one who's suggesting that seeking social status is something worthy of mockery, not me. It's something everyone does every day.

Because equating discussion of being a victim of sexual harassment/assault to “seeking social status” is mocking and diminishing it, Cliff.

As best, it’s just completely tone-deaf and disrespectful of victims. So don’t do it.

[Tinordi]

What type of person would read all the stories of women being harassed in the workplace, being drugged, raped, pressured for sex and make the conclusion that these they are just out to improve their status among their peers?

[Grimbl420]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

Is there a purer representation of the fragile, aggrieved and desperate male ego than reacting to the #metoo campaign with complaints that it's not gender neutral?

This is the attitude I'm talking about right here. This is a direct attack and attempt to shame men who share their feelings and experiences.

Fragile, aggrieved and desperate? These are thing we should be talking about and helping people with, not making fun of them for.

but it's just easier to name call and ignore, right?

[woob]

Originally Posted by snootchiebootchies

Powerful #HimToo article but I have to think the author is putting herself at risk for libel lawsuits as these incidents are decades old.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry...b04a400db8afef

Made me think of comedian Charline Yi's tweet about a racist incident with David Cross 10 years ago and Cross claims having no recollection of it. Yet he has been receiving condemnation since being publicly shamed.

I clicked on this link to read it, and it's no longer on HuffPo. You can still view it in cached mode.

[Tinordi]

Originally Posted by Grimbl420

This is the attitude I'm talking about right here. This is a direct attack and attempt to shame men who share their feelings and experiences.

Fragile, aggrieved and desperate? These are thing we should be talking about and helping people with, not making fun of them for.

but it's just easier to name call and ignore, right?

You weren't sharing your feelings, you were whining that women were taking the spotlight.

[Tinordi]

Originally Posted by Grimbl420

Because it's been made abundantly clear that men are not welcome to share their abuse stories with the Me Too moniker, and I'm standing up for those men.

And here we have your stated purpose in this thread.

Protecting those fictitious men who don't feel welcome in the conversation.

By my read, a majority of the posters in this thread are men and have felt more than welcome to come in and empathize and discuss.

But let's be honest as to why you've stridently marched into this thread to defend a non issue. You're feeling vulnerable by a topic that's uncomfortable and difficult to process for some men.

[Grimbl420]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

You weren't sharing your feelings, you were whining that women were taking the spotlight.

no my complaint was about people shaming men actually.

[Grimbl420]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

And here we have your stated purpose in this thread.

Protecting those fictitious men who don't feel welcome in the conversation.

By my read, a majority of the posters in this thread are men and have felt more than welcome to come in and empathize and discuss.

But let's be honest as to why you've stridently marched into this thread to defend a non issue. You're feeling vulnerable by a topic that's uncomfortable and difficult to process for some men.

because of people like you we'll never have an honest discussion.

[PsYcNeT]

The irony of someone with 420 in their username having no chill.

[Wormius]

Any links to some stories on #metoo from men that were unjustly criticized just because they were shared by men? The only ones that I saw get any criticism was when somebody was trying to turn it into a debate about gender fairness.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Grimbl420

because of people like you we'll never have an honest discussion.

You’ve yet to provide evidence that this has happened here. The only thing Tinordi is shutting down is your (thus far false) accusation of men not being wecome to share their stories of being sexually abused. Far as I can tell, that hasn’t happened.

You can’t keep touting the value of honest discussion if you aren’t willing to participate in it yourself.

[Grimbl420]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

But let's be honest as to why you've stridently marched into this thread to defend a non issue.

an non issue, as you call men fragile and desperate for wanting to be included.

You're feeling vulnerable by a topic that's uncomfortable and difficult to process for some men.

This topic has been rammed in my head since I was able to understand it (going on 5 decades now). Sexual harassment has been a highlight women's issue my entire life, you act like this is the first time we're talking about it. You act like there hasn't been standardized training about it in the workplace for decades.

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

The irony of someone with 420 in their username having no chill.

The irony of someone without an actual argument resorting to insults.

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

You’ve yet to provide evidence that this has happened here. The only thing Tinordi is shutting down is your (thus far false) accusation of men not being wecome to share their stories of being sexually abused. Far as I can tell, that hasn’t happened.

I guess calling men fragile and desperate for wanting to be included doesn't count? Wow.

You can’t keep touting the value of honest discussion if you aren’t willing to participate in it yourself.

It seems to me that people are arguing like I'm saying I'm against women sharing their stories, that the harassment they face isn't terrible, or even that all men have it as bad. I'm really not, you all need to relax and reassess your own biases.

You all want honesty.

- We're about as likely to get rid of sexual harassment and assault as we are to get rid of murder, because there will always be #######s who don't give a ####.
- the vast majority of people are just people who probably go out of their way to be decent to others.

[corporatejay]

Instead of "men get sexually harassed too" can we also just use the "men sexually harass women and men" this way instead of deciding who can be a victim, we can shift the focus to the real problem, the fact that men are exponentially more likely to be a sexual harasser than women and men are almost certainly the problem.