"Me Too"

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

I thought Patrick Kane was determined to have not done the alleged act?

Charges were not filed, the DA didn't believe the victim, the victim's mother was a circus, there's lots of things about the Patrick Kane case that are effed up. It is uniquely unsatisfying for all parties.

It's certainly not the ironclad exoneration I would hope for before wearing that guy's jersey out in public. To me, 'he might not have raped her. he probably didn't' is not grounds to put that shirt on.

Originally Posted by photon

It's one thing if I, through my words or actions, send a message to a few women that I trivialize sexual assault.

But wearing a jersey like that sends the message to every one that sees it, all day long.

I don't understand how a parent can see their child wear say, a Derrick Rose jersey, and not sit that young man down and have a conversation. They don't need to read them the riot act, but have a discussion about consent, and how you present yourself to the world. Whether or not you believe Rose or any of these athletes to have done what they're accused of, by wearing their gear in public, you are making a very public statement, and you need to ask yourself if you're truly comfortable making it.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

I'm sitting in Earls lounge watching a plays of the month countdown. Tyreek Hill, who definitely beat the #### out of his pregnant girlfriend, is on there returning a kickoff for a touchdown.

If you watch a Tyreek Hill highlight and ignore his history because he takes the rock to the house, you're scum.

I have seen an appalling number of young men walking around in public wearing jerseys of athletes accused of sexual assault this summer. Derrick Rose, Ben Roethlisberger, Patrick Kane, Kobe Bryant, the list is not small.

How about all the Mayweather hoopla? Convicted of abusing women, yet he's become fabulously rich and incredibly popular. I was basically dismissed when I confronted people who were on the Mayweather bandwagon for both the MayPac fight and MayMac fight.

[Caged Great]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

I hope other prominent directors and producers are named. The Weinstein stories have a name, that's just piling on.

Like Reese Witherspoon is saying she was sexually assaulted 'by a director' at 16. Who? This is an opportunity to name names. Name 'All the other Harveys"

I know I was frustrated with that when I read it.

Might as well get all the horrid people out of the business and that way you can bring a little normalcy to the whole industry, just like with the Catholic church.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

Whether or not you believe Rose or any of these athletes to have done what they're accused of, by wearing their gear in public, you are making a very public statement, and you need to ask yourself if you're truly comfortable making it.

No you aren’t, at least, not to a lot of people. Kane was the second highest-selling jersey last year behind Crosby. It’s not because a huge number of jersey buyers don’t believe the victim or want to normalise sexual assault, it’s because it’s a hockey jersey. In the same way people can enjoy Woody Allen the director and not Woody Allen the person, people can love Patrick Kane the player and not Patrick Kane the person, and wearing his jersey shows support for his professional life, not his personal one.

Without getting into the discussion of “is being accused enough to be treated as guilty,” I’d say a lot of people rightly have no problem separating the man from the athlete, but I understand not being able to as well.

[Galakanokis]

Originally Posted by Caged Great

I know I was frustrated with that when I read it.

Might as well get all the horrid people out of the business and that way you can bring a little normalcy to the whole industry, just like with the Catholic church.

The whole industry is brutal and has always been this way. It permeates from the heads of the studios all the way down to the lowest PA. It is an industry of treating people like crap because you are "important'. The way women are treated, the sexual side is just a step above what is already a horrible situation.

My company worked on a number of Weinstein projects in the mid to late 2000's and we knew than that no female producer or sales member was to be alone with Harvey. On more than occasion female workers were left in tears over the way Harvey treated them. It wasn't always sexual, sometimes it was just outright abuse, being yelled and screamed at, told you are a worthless etc, etc. What do you do? Who do you complain to? He was essentially the "boss". But this treatment can be found in almost any production and is very common. You are treated like crap on your first day on set and you learn that is the way things are done. You step on people to get ahead, it's just the way it is.

The stories that could be told about some pretty major stars, directors and producer are almost unreal. Basically any story you have heard about any celebrities pales in comparison to what they have actually done. Unfortunately these people are surrounded by enablers that cover everything up just in the chance they might become stars.

It is a terrible industry really.

[Wormius]

Originally Posted by Galakanokis

The whole industry is brutal and has always been this way. It permeates from the heads of the studios all the way down to the lowest PA. It is an industry of treating people like crap because you are "important'. The way women are treated, the sexual side is just a step above what is already a horrible situation.

My company worked on a number of Weinstein projects in the mid to late 2000's and we knew than that no female producer or sales member was to be alone with Harvey. On more than occasion female workers were left in tears over the way Harvey treated them. It wasn't always sexual, sometimes it was just outright abuse, being yelled and screamed at, told you are a worthless etc, etc. What do you do? Who do you complain to? He was essentially the "boss". But this treatment can be found in almost any production and is very common. You are treated like crap on your first day on set and you learn that is the way things are done. You step on people to get ahead, it's just the way it is.

The stories that could be told about some pretty major stars, directors and producer are almost unreal. Basically any story you have heard about any celebrities pales in comparison to what they have actually done. Unfortunately these people are surrounded by enablers that cover everything up just in the chance they might become stars.

It is a terrible industry really.

Certainly there are people around that have no skin in the game who could speak up? How does it really get to this point, even taking into account all of the people riding on coat tails?

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

No you aren’t, at least, not to a lot of people. Kane was the second highest-selling jersey last year behind Crosby. It’s not because a huge number of jersey buyers don’t believe the victim or want to normalise sexual assault, it’s because it’s a hockey jersey. In the same way people can enjoy Woody Allen the director and not Woody Allen the person, people can love Patrick Kane the player and not Patrick Kane the person, and wearing his jersey shows support for his professional life, not his personal one.

Without getting into the discussion of “is being accused enough to be treated as guilty,” I’d say a lot of people rightly have no problem separating the man from the athlete, but I understand not being able to as well.

I used to differentiate - I thought there was no reason to not enjoy R Kelly's music just because he peed on that girl and has a history of raping underage girls. Then I had to confront R Kelly's history, and when you know more about that man, the lyrics of 'I Believe I Can Fly' take on a different meaning.

Bill Cosby is the person who got me into stand up comedy. When I was 11 years old, my parents bought me a 20th Century Masters CD of Cosby's greatest hits. Less than six weeks before that entire story blew up, I had a twenty minute conversation with a friend about how Bill Cosby was, in fact, the best stand up comedian of the last 100 years.

My mother is as militant-feminist as it gets, and wouldn't stop asking me if I'd seen Midnight In Paris. No, I haven't - Woody Allen rapes.

The art is not separate from the individual. Patrick Kane is a great hockey player, and a terrible human. There was evidence of this before his rape accusation, when this millionaire beat up a cab driver over pocket change. That's a bad dude. His goal celebration literally contains a finger blast. #### that guy. He plays on a team with Toews and Keith - if you want a jersey, you have two options who didn't beat up an innocent man and weren't accused of sexual assault. Kane's jersey being the 2nd best seller behind Crosby is frankly disgusting.

These people aren't our friends. I don't know R Kelly. I don't know Floyd. I don't know Kobe. I don't know Ribeiro. I don't know Gilmour. I don't know Voynov. I know that what they have done means I won't ever wear there gear, and neither will my kids (if/when they exist). Why is there a dividing line about what they do at work just because what they do is extremely publicly visible?

If I were a machinist, and I was a great machinist, the best machinist who'd ever worked a drill bit, and I worked in the Foothills industrial park, my friends and colleagues and clients would not say 'oh, but you should see him work a lathe' (I don't even know if that's how that works) when confronted with evidence of my raping.

I'm not saying stop being a fan of the team, I'm not even saying stop being a fan of the guy - there's enough reasonable doubt to let someone convince themselves Patrick Kane is not a rapist. He wasn't charged.

I just don't see how you put these names on your own back and walk around. There's a difference between ignorance and wilful ignorance, and I guess I find the jersey thing so reprehensible because it seems to fall very much on the wilful side of the ledger.

[Galakanokis]

Originally Posted by Wormius

Certainly there are people around that have no skin in the game who could speak up? How does it really get to this point, even taking into account all of the people riding on coat tails?

Who do you tell? Authorities? We have all seen how that plays out. It is ingrained, most people, especially ones that are high up have been doing this their entire adult lives so it is "normal" to them. I was treated this way so you will be treated this way. Old school mentality in a huge industry that has stars and is glamorous and sexy.

I have had people try and dress me down over the years. You get a lot of the "Do you know who I am?" conversations. And these come from nobodies, ADs or assistants editors. It never really ends well for them but I always get a lecture the next day or two and a call from upper management that the production has threatened to pull the show from us. I was on set for Big Eyes when the DIT lit into me. I shot back as he was full of #### and completely lying about everything, I had proof, but who got in #### afterwards? Yeah, me.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

If I were a machinist, and I was a great machinist, the best machinist who'd ever worked a drill bit, and I worked in the Foothills industrial park, my friends and colleagues and clients would not say 'oh, but you should see him work a lathe' (I don't even know if that's how that works) when confronted with evidence of my raping.

But would anyone throw out anything you’d worked on? Or stop using it?

I get what you’re saying and I agree in part, but can you commit to never rewatching a Weinstein Company film? Is everything someone did tainted to an unsalvagable level?

I think Kane gets a big pass, from men and women, because of what you said: there’s plenty of evidence that suggests he didn’t do it. Did he? Maybe, but we can’t know, so is it everyone’s responsibility to treat him and his legacy as if he is guilty?

I think we can get carried away with doing what we think is the right thing, and while I totally support your decision to lend zero support to any of these individuals, I don’t see anything insidious, ignorant, or disgusting about those who do.

Though, I think sport itself has a fairly big problem, especially football. The fact that criminals can still play while a guy like CC sits without a contract is pretty disgusting. I don’t have a horse in the race, but if the decision is to reject players who are distractions, then you would think criminals wouldn’t ever find work again.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

But would anyone throw out anything you’d worked on? Or stop using it?

I get what you’re saying and I agree in part, but can you commit to never rewatching a Weinstein Company film? Is everything someone did tainted to an unsalvagable level?

I think Kane gets a big pass, from men and women, because of what you said: there’s plenty of evidence that suggests he didn’t do it. Did he? Maybe, but we can’t know, so is it everyone’s responsibility to treat him and his legacy as if he is guilty?

I think we can get carried away with doing what we think is the right thing, and while I totally support your decision to lend zero support to any of these individuals, I don’t see anything insidious, ignorant, or disgusting about those who do.

Though, I think sport itself has a fairly big problem, especially football. The fact that criminals can still play while a guy like CC sits without a contract is pretty disgusting. I don’t have a horse in the race, but if the decision is to reject players who are distractions, then you would think criminals wouldn’t ever find work again.

I guess I'd say about the machine bit - nobody would know they were using my work - that's the Kane deniability.

Would I watch another Weinstein movie? I'm sure I would, though I certainly wouldn't pay money to go see one. I wouldn't put a poster for one up in my home, I wouldn't wear a t-shirt with a catch phrase from the film, there's a lot I wouldn't do. More than anything, I wouldn't be able to watch any such film without the knowledge of Harvey tainting my experience.

It'll be interesting to see how I react to the next Tarantino movie, given he's admitted to knowing the whole time. Probably puts a dent in my Django 2 hopes. My initial response is, I've given QT quite enough money for one lifetime. We'll see if I'm a hypocrite

[GirlySports]

Hollywood needs to decide what it wants to be. Sure people like Tarantino are coming out now after the fact. "I'm sooo sorry that I knew the whole time but didn't say anything." Does anyone step up and name others now? People must know.

Or does Hollywood decide that sex for money or for a part in a movie is just a normal consented transaction and is nobody's business (like it's always been). That's the Libertarian view isn't it?

[Fighting Banana Slug]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

I guess I'd say about the machine bit - nobody would know they were using my work - that's the Kane deniability.

Would I watch another Weinstein movie? I'm sure I would, though I certainly wouldn't pay money to go see one. I wouldn't put a poster for one up in my home, I wouldn't wear a t-shirt with a catch phrase from the film, there's a lot I wouldn't do. More than anything, I wouldn't be able to watch any such film without the knowledge of Harvey tainting my experience.

It'll be interesting to see how I react to the next Tarantino movie, given he's admitted to knowing the whole time. Probably puts a dent in my Django 2 hopes. My initial response is, I've given QT quite enough money for one lifetime. We'll see if I'm a hypocrite

I admire your conviction, and I don't think that would make you a hypocrite, but I think it does expose some failings in your logic. It probably isn't a stretch that all movies (since Weinstein entered the business) could be tainted by virtue of that knowledge if you want to go there. Six degrees of separation, and all of that. I just think it would be an impossible standard to uphold.
Similar for sports heroes/merchandise. There are all sorts of examples of terrible people being really good at throwing a ball or stopping a puck or whatever. Those that wear the jersey are almost certainly celebrating the good skills and not the terrible people part.

EDIT: I shouldn't have included the "since Weinstein" qualifier. Edison himself seemed to have been a pretty terrible human being on many levels, so maybe all movies are tainted?

[PepsiFree]

Agreed. It’s admirable conviction and a belief I don’t think is the least bit wrong for holding, but (especially in terms of the guilt being unclear) it’s not a standard that even a large minority of people could or would live up to.

A certain level of disassociation is inherent in all things. Do you have an smart phone? Wear modern clothes? Many of these brands have done some terrible things and put things in terrible positions, and their record is much less murky than a guy who was accused but never charged.

My only point being, you cannot live in modern society without deciding what lines you’re willing to cross and what injustices you’re willing to acknowledge without changing your own behaviour. I admire those who have a firm line and dictate their life in terms of consuming products and entertainment produced only by good people through acceptable means, but that’s an extreme bar to set for the average human being.

[OMG!WTF!]

Disney hired Victor Slava, a convicted child molester, to direct Powder in 1995. The guy still works today cranking out b movies. Amazing what goes on in Hollywood.

I can see watching Weinstein movies simply because there are so many other people involved and I'm not sure the creative essence of the films is really his. The money is his. So maybe a boycott would make sense.

Wear modern clothes?

Yeah ya Hugo Boss wearing Nazi.

[GGG]

If your issue is Sexual Harasssment. I don't think you can watch any movie. Just read Galonakos's post.

It's wide spread and everyone covers it up.

[CliffFletcher]

Those who climb to the top of the entertainment industry are usually awful people. Take narcissistic and extraordinarily ambitious individuals. Add drugs, sex, and a sense of monstrous entitlement. Finish with naked avarice and piles and piles of money, and you get the moral vacuum of the movie and music industries. Most of the musicians you love have had sex with underage girls, usually drunk or stoned. Actors cheat on their partners and leave a trail of neglected children behind. Everyone will sell out their mother to advance their careers.

Many of us have lines we draw when it comes to this behaviour. For instance, I can no longer stomach Jimmy Page. But whenever you listen to a song or watch a movie, don't kid yourself - the creators were probably creeps who exploited all kinds of people.

[wittynickname]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

I thought Patrick Kane was determined to have not done the alleged act?

He and Roethlisberger are in the same boat, charges never filed or dismissed because of "circumstances." Sexual assault is hard to prove, especially in a case like one of Roethlisberger's accusations, where there was a shady meeting of his people with her and suddenly charges went away.

Neither were exonerated, but the problem went away and their respective teams/leagues went on the Redemption PR tour for them.

[Minnie]

If people want to start some sort of accompanying movement, it really needs to only be as simple as #ibelieveyou - those 3 words have incredible impact. Really nothing else needs to be said, when someone says #metoo or tells you for the first time, that they've been harrassed or assaulted or bullied.

ETA: David Blaine accused of 2004 rape of model, reported last November (2016) but it's only hitting the news now, I guess?

[OMG!WTF!]

I never really followed the Kobe story. His is a pretty amazing statement that I doubt you'll be hearing from anyone else in his shoes. Should be mandatory reading attached to one's first contract/large paycheck.

First, I want to apologize directly to the young woman involved in this incident. I want to apologize to her for my behavior that night and for the consequences she has suffered in the past year. Although this year has been incredibly difficult for me personally, I can only imagine the pain she has had to endure. I also want to apologize to her parents and family members, and to my family and friends and supporters, and to the citizens of Eagle, Colo.

I also want to make it clear that I do not question the motives of this young woman. No money has been paid to this woman. She has agreed that this statement will not be used against me in the civil case. Although I truly believe this encounter between us was consensual, I recognize now that she did not and does not view this incident the same way I did. After months of reviewing discovery, listening to her attorney, and even her testimony in person, I now understand how she feels that she did not consent to this encounter.

[81MC]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

...Or does Hollywood decide that sex for money or for a part in a movie is just a normal consented transaction and is nobody's business (like it's always been). That's the Libertarian view isn't it?

This makes sense. It would be utter ignorance to pretend it's anything but. Art, including film has long confessed the realities of making it in Hollywood, or NY, or Nashville, or anywhere entertainment is a lifeblood. I'm not sure I'd clasify having sex with someone you'd rather not have, but did because you felt professional/social pressure to the same as being forced.
If you want to start looking at the moral compass of industry and corporations, you might need to be prepared to stop buying and using just about everything.