Arena negotiation discussion. UPD: Flames release their proposal

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by home_sweet_dome

So to summarize, ya i'd definitely take my chances with a different ownership group.

That would be extremely foolish.

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

It is not that simple. Does CSEC benefit from the Stampede using the facility? There is a little more nuance to that point than your opinion would suggest.

There is also another fundamental issue at play here that doesn't get as much discussion as it warrants, IMO. And that is the location.

Arenas, in cities this size, are not good investments, which is why funding is such a major issue and source of contention. But an extension of that is that an arena does attract a large amount of development around it. CSEC (or the owners) wants to develop other projects around the arena, in order to leverage their investment.

The city wants the arena to be part of their development plan. They have their own plans for the area surrounding the Victoria Park location (thus the city also sees benefit in the project). And further to this, the Stampede Board wants that location, and wants to benefit from the arena as well.

There is no right or wrong here, simply two very different agendas. And IMO, this is the real source of the cavernous distance between the two sides.

The $185 million (what’s the exact number again) offered by the city to help CSEC to complete this project more than covers whatever offshoot benefits the city might receive from the project. Many studies have shown that amount to be insignificant. The primary beneficiary (primary is probably not strong enough a word here) is CSEC. It’s their building.

No one is stopping Flames owners from purchasing surrounding lands and developing there.

[getbak]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Does CSEC benefit from the Stampede using the facility?

They get all revenue from the building, so yes.

[Cube Inmate]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

The Hurricanes are playing to 8,000 fans. When you watch the highlights from Raleigh there are entire rows empty behind the benches. And the league is still hesitant to move them.

That's how much the board of governors hates relocation.

Being forced to move from a non-traditional hockey market--Raleigh, Phoenix, Atlanta, etc.--is an indictment of the NHL's decision to put a team in that type of market in the first place. So, Gary and his minions are very, very reluctant to allow it to happen. That's how much they hate being wrong.

Add to that: until they reach 32 teams, there's motivation to keep the appetite for another team high. If you allow the Flames to move to Seattle (or KC, or Hamilton, or Quebec City), you've still got the same number of "hockey-ready" markets available to take an expansion team. If you allow the 'Canes to move from Raleigh, nobody's ever going to consider that location again--and your potential markets for expansion shrink by 1.

Once the league hits 32, I think that's the end of North American expansion and the owners will be much more willing to move the money-losing teams around to maximize revenue.

[Robbob]

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

The $185 million (what’s the exact number again) offered by the city to help CSEC to complete this project more than covers whatever offshoot benefits the city might receive from the project. Many studies have shown that amount to be insignificant. The primary beneficiary (primary is probably not strong enough a word here) is CSEC. It’s their building.

No one is stopping Flames owners from purchasing surrounding lands and developing there.

Isn't most of the land around there purchased by the stampede? Do they even pay any property taxes on the land? I think the stampede really wants it there because they benefit greatly being neighbors with the Flames. It wouldn't surprise me they made 5 million a year off events at the current dome from parking. Since they are a non profit I think they should reside in the pluses for the city.

[Incogneto]

Originally Posted by getbak

Innsbruck held a referendum on the weekend and voted against bidding for the 2026 Olympics. Of the four cities that have expressed serious interest in hosting 2026, it's now down to Calgary and Sion, Switzerland.

How desperate will the IOC get? They've apparently offered some big concessions to LA to host 2028. Could a similar deal be on the table for Calgary?

I expect to see a press conference with a smiling King & Nenshi supporting Calgary's Olympic bid with a show piece arena in the next few months.

There is one other player for the 2026 Olympics:
http://www.sltrib.com/sports/2017/10...-winter-games/

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Robbob

Isn't most of the land around there purchased by the stampede? Do they even pay any property taxes on the land? I think the stampede really wants it there because they benefit greatly being neighbors with the Flames. It wouldn't surprise me they made 5 million a year off events at the current dome from parking. Since they are a non profit I think they should reside in the pluses for the city.

The flames want a portion or all revenue from stampede parking adjacent to the new arena as well.

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by home_sweet_dome

For the last 21 years, this ownership group has employed either Ron Bremner or Ken King as the President of the Flames/CSEC. These are 2 guys that have proven to be absolute disasters in that role with numerous poor hires made below them for both on and off ice roles. There is no sign that King is about to be turfed anytime soon either.

In that 21 years the Flames have gotten out of the 1st round twice, the magical and improbable run in 2004 and beating the Nucks in 2015 only to get crushed in the 2nd round by a much superior Ducks team.

Yes the Flames owners spend to the cap in recent years but as proven last night, all the money in the world doesn't buy success if you don't have competent people in the right positions of the organization, especially at the top.

There are also the various reports of meddling by ownership and whether true or not, the results of the Flames with this ownership group, especially after the passing of Hotchkiss, speak for themselves.

So to summarize, ya i'd definitely take my chances with a different ownership group.

When you have senior level employees like Sean Kelso tweeting idiocy comparing Nenshi to Trump you know what level of competence exists in the Flames front office. KK and his staff need a serious overhaul.

[Robbob]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

The flames want a portion or all revenue from stampede parking adjacent to the new arena as well.

That doesn't surprise me, in the land swap they lose the only parking that generated revenue for them.

[corporatejay]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

That would be extremely foolish.

Yeah, this new building clustereff aside they have been a great ownership group.

[Fighting Banana Slug]

Other than dumb tweets, what does Sean Kelso do exactly?

[Wormius]

If the Flames were to move anywhere, they would only get hockey related revenue, right? I am sure the entities who built the arenas in say Seattle aren’t going to give away concert, food, etc. sales to the Flames. What reason would the Flames have to move then? A new arena in another city gets them less than what would get here even if they paid for it themselves.

[Wormius]

Originally Posted by Fighting Banana Slug

Other than dumb tweets, what does Sean Kelso do exactly?

That’s literally his job, no?

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Hot_Flatus

When you have senior level employees like Sean Kelso tweeting idiocy comparing Nenshi to Trump you know what level of competence exists in the Flames front office. KK and his staff need a serious overhaul.

I agree with this. I have not been impressed with Kingfor sometime and feel he should fall on the sword here. When the Flames courted Shannahan the rumor was Shanny wanted King’s job not the role that eventually went to Burke.

A couple moments that stick out for me are the Iginla trade where King was schooled and embarrassed on the radio by Bob Mcowen admitting they didn’t handle the situation properly.

The other is the building. When all the crap was going on with Edmonton Long would allude to the fact things are movingnin thenright direction for the Flames to avoid similar problems. When Calgary Next finally was unveiled (2-3 years late imo) it was clear that was all talk and the Flames were starting from scratch when they proposed the project.

The Flames made a power move to try and get Nenshi out and their guy in. Didn’t work so here we are. Flames shouldn’t be moving anywhere but the Flames are lucking out with Seattle and Houston expressing interest in adding a team. There are legit market that can threaten the future of the Flames. Edwards and Conwould have to sell the team to Houston(Rockets owner wants to own an nhl team) but perhaps would be able to remain owners and move them to Seattle?

At the end of the day I think it gets done here. Perhaps the Olympics will be the event that can sell the city on making a better deal than they offered? The Flames also need to make some concessions here as well and a middle ground needs to be found. I fear though if Bettman has some personal issue with Nenshi that this could go real ugly.

[calumniate]

Should be curtains for Ken now, one would think

[Fighting Banana Slug]

^^ Quote doesn't seem to work. Re: Kelso.
It was an honest question, what is his title with CSES? Is it PR?

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by Fighting Banana Slug

^^ Quote doesn't seem to work. Re: Kelso.
It was an honest question, what is his title with CSES? Is it PR?

Director, Communications & Media Relations.

If there's one guy who should know better, it's him.

[Barnes]

Originally Posted by Fighting Banana Slug

^^ Quote doesn't seem to work. Re: Kelso.
It was an honest question, what is his title with CSES? Is it PR?

Director, Communications & Media Relations

[oldschoolcalgary]

Originally Posted by Table 5

Director, Communications & Media Relations.

If there's one guy who should know better, it's him.

yup... He's the CSES's version of the Mooch...

[iggy_oi]

The more I think about it the more I think Ken King may soon be done with the flames. This negotiation has been an absolute PR nightmare and although he has been following the flames’ mandate, he has been presenting it very poorly and standoffish in the media. They may not get rid of him before the deal gets done since doing so could put them in a weaker negotiation position, but someone will get the axe for blowing the election buying master plan.