2 Calgary brothers charged with sex attack on teen

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Agreed Captain, that's the issue though. An appropriate living facility doesn't really exist for people whose ability stops them from telling right and wrong (and who have acted out in a violent way).

Should there be an automatic life sentence of minor labour and below average living conditions for those who cannot be rehabilitated after committing violent crime? Can we know for sure that an offender can't be rehabilitated or helped? And what's the limit to the crime?

I have no pity for the brothers and wouldn't mind if they were in fact locked away for good. I don't care about rehabilitation for violent criminals.

We send away good sons and daughters in the military who often give their lives, we can certainly do the same with these two idiots to prevent them from victimizing anyone else.

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by llwhiteoutll

You can't lump Vince Li and Matthew DeGrood in with the rest of those cases though. The circumstances were nothing alike and the framework in place was, and is being, used. If these two are found NCR, they will most likely be in custody much longer than if they were found guilty.

I do agree that the other cases you mentioned did result in sentences that were much too short.

The point I keep making in these threads is that the bulk of people moving in and out of jail have some type of mental illness, yet people jump in to defend just a handful.

So yes, you can lump in Vince Li and DeGrood with the rest. They may have a different mental illness, but there are plenty of people just like them that aren't championed and let out of jail.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

The point I keep making in these threads is that the bulk of people moving in and out of jail have some type of mental illness, yet people jump in to defend just a handful.

So yes, you can lump in Vince Li and DeGrood with the rest. They may have a different mental illness, but there are plenty of people just like them that aren't championed and let out of jail.

The level of mental illness of these people reaches the point where they did not have control of their actions and with proper medication is treatable to reduce the risk of recidivism.

If you applied an NCR designation where the sentence is effectively life in prison until you are unlikely to recommit crimes you would be imprisoming people for far longer than we currently do.

[Flash Walken]

Jen and Danny had to admit that nothing seemed to make a difference—not affection, not discipline, not therapy. “I was reading and reading and reading, trying to figure out what diagnosis made sense,” Jen tells me. “What fits with the behaviors I’m seeing?” Eventually she found one condition that did seem to fit—but it was a diagnosis that all the mental-health professionals had dismissed, because it’s considered both rare and untreatable. In July 2013, Jen took Samantha to see a psychiatrist in New York City, who confirmed her suspicion.

“In the children’s mental-health world, it’s pretty much a terminal diagnosis, except your child’s not going to die,” Jen says. “It’s just that there’s no help.” She recalls walking out of the psychiatrist’s office on that warm afternoon and standing on a street corner in Manhattan as pedestrians pushed past her in a blur. A feeling flooded over her, singular, unexpected. Hope. Someone had finally acknowledged her family’s plight. Perhaps she and Danny could, against the odds, find a way to help their daughter.

Samantha was diagnosed with conduct disorder with callous and unemotional traits. She had all the characteristics of a budding psychopath.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine...hopath/524502/

[jammies]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine...hopath/524502/

That is a fantastic article, well worth the long read.

[afc wimbledon]

Two points, in all my years of working with criminals (25 and counting in one way or another) virtually all of them were mentally low functioning at least, IQ's in the 90's or so, illiterate, poor impulse control and almost non existent decision making skills, the number of criminals I worked with that were 'normal' and did crime was infinitesimally small.

Second point, I'm happy to jail people for vastly longer time periods if jails are better, if you accept that most people you are locking up have little ability to avoid jail and need to be locked up for very long times then we as a society need to build jails that function more than a violence ridden craphole where the strongest pray on the weakest while the staff ignore whats going on as 'they're all crims anyway, eff em'.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

Two points, in all my years of working with criminals (25 and counting in one way or another) virtually all of them were mentally low functioning at least, IQ's in the 90's or so, illiterate, poor impulse control and almost non existent decision making skills, the number of criminals I worked with that were 'normal' and did crime was infinitesimally small.

Second point, I'm happy to jail people for vastly longer time periods if jails are better, if you accept that most people you are locking up have little ability to avoid jail and need to be locked up for very long times then we as a society need to build jails that function more than a violence ridden craphole where the strongest pray on the weakest while the staff ignore whats going on as 'they're all crims anyway, eff em'.

Prisons around the world use a variety of tools to prevent recidivism. It is fiendishly hard to disentangle what influences a convict’s future behaviour, but Adam Gelb of the Pew Charitable Trusts, a think-tank, lays out some principles which have been shown to work.

First, identify the inmates who are most likely to reoffend. Some good predictors of this cannot be changed, such as a troubled family background and previous criminal history. Age is also crucial—some 68% of federal prisoners in America who are released before the age of 21 are rearrested within 8 years; for the over-60s, it is only 16%. Other risk factors are more malleable. Poor impulse control, substance abuse and the habit of picking anti-social friends can all respond to treatment.

Rehabilitation programmes that focus on factors other than crime, such as creative abilities, physical conditioning and self-esteem do not reduce criminal behaviour, argues Edward Latessa of the University of Cincinnati. Boot camps are especially ineffective: they foster aggression and bond criminals together.

Oliver Bueno, a former drug-dealer, agrees. “I came out worse,” he recalls of his time in a juvenile boot camp in Nevada. “You got beat up all the time by staff,” he says, adding that the guards were “ex-military, hillbillies and real racists”. He describes having his head shaved and being constantly shouted at. “The abuse got me more and more angry, hating authority,” he says. After his release, he went straight back to gangbanging, selling drugs and getting into fights over trivial slights. Shortly before his next arrest, he says, “I had a gun in [another man’s] face and I don’t even remember what it was about.”

Perhaps the best tool is cognitive behavioural therapy (CBT). This is not about sitting in a circle and sharing one’s inner demons. It is about helping people to understand the “triggers”—people, places and things—that prompt them to offend. The counsellor nudges the offender towards minimising negative influences and maximising positive ones. For example, “If you get together with your friend Tom on payday and go crazy, maybe you should avoid Tom on payday,” says Mr Gelb. Counsellors should not argue or hector, but show that they are listening and praise offenders for acting responsibly.

Norway uses CBT a lot—Tore benefited from it. America uses it spottily. A study of over 500 programmes in American prisons, jails and probation agencies by Faye Taxman of George Mason University found that only 20% involved CBT and only about 5% of individuals were likely to have access to it. Done well, it can reduce recidivism by 10-30%. A meta-analysis of 50 CBT programmes in America by Thomas Feucht and Tammy Holt for the National Institute of Justice, a government body, found that 74% were effective or promising. They worked best with juvenile offenders and worst with wife-beaters. There was mixed evidence for the effect on sex offenders, who are hard to reform.

http://www.economist.com/news/intern...ake-bad-people

[MBates]

Originally Posted by aaronck

These guys will be out way before the emotional scars of that poor girl heal.
Harsh punishment might be a good deterrent, but do we have such a thing in Canada? Vince Li is out and unsupervised. Karla Homolka volunteering at schools, Degrood applied already for less conditions. Natalie Pasqua almost killed another woman 5 years after pushing someone in front of a C train. Daniel Tschetter killed a whole family with his cement truck drunk and was out in less than 5. No sentence longer than 12 years for a cowardly swarming of Lukas Strasser (except the guy who just skipped bail and is still at large) Scary how light a lot of these sentences are, NCR or not.

Posts like this are very annoying because they are part seriously misleading, part outright false, and just enough truth to make some reasonable people wrongly believe our justice system is a joke.

Two of your flagship cases are people who are by definition not criminals and therefore not subject to any form of sentence or punishment. Between those is the most famous example in history of an anomaly that happened in large part because a defence lawyer hid critical evidence (kind of important stuff if you want to put people in jail for lengthy periods) from police and the Crown made a deal it called a 'deal with the devil' and it is clear it would never be made again. Then you drop in two cases that arguably do support your point and end off with a complete falsehood that people convicted of a murder in Canada only got 12 years when they got mandatory life sentences as every murderer does.

There are many valid criticisms and debates that can be had on criminal sentencing, but if you are going to drum up fear of how scary it all is, then I for one wish you would at least do so based on facts.

[afc wimbledon]

The counsellor nudges the offender towards minimising negative influences and maximising positive ones. For example, “If you get together with your friend Tom on payday and go crazy, maybe you should avoid Tom on payday,” says Mr Gelb. Counsellors should not argue or hector, but show that they are listening and praise offenders for acting responsibly.

We call that 'SUDS', seemingly unimportant decisions.

Most of what I try to teach my foster kids is really just better decision making, if you have to get wasted do it on Friday so you just screw up your weekend not on Sunday so you lose your job etc

[Otto-matic]

https://globalnews.ca/news/3785288/s...-calgary-teen/

Corey and Cody Manyshots will have to wait another three months before they learn their sentence for the kidnapping and repeated rape of a Calgary teen.

It’s been nearly three years since the brutal attack. Sentencing has been delayed several times.


On Thursday, court heard psychiatric assessments did not address how extreme fetal alcohol spectrum disorder (FASD) impacted the commission of the brutal crimes.

Mitch Stephensen is defence for Corey and told court his client needs structure.

“He needs supervision, that’s for sure,” Stephensen said.

He said Corey has an IQ of 46 and said “that brings him within the bottom 0.1 per cent of the general population.”

Stephensen suggested a sentence of two years followed by three years probation, which would be after enhanced 1.5 credit for time already served.

Alain Hepner represents Cody. He suggested a term of five years in prison after enhanced credit for time served.

“We can’t put people with FASD in prison forever,” Hepner said.

He said Cody was left to his own devices at an early age and began using crack and amphetamines as a teenager.

“These two men fell through the cracks of life. They didn’t stand a chance when they were born.”
Judge Semenuk agreed that the circumstances are unique.

“I’ve never seen a case like this before,” he said. “How on earth could there be any proper community supervision when the accused is released?”

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Otto-matic

https://globalnews.ca/news/3785288/s...-calgary-teen/

Yeah I mean the justice system doesn't really have a great way to deal with these guys. Sticking them in jail to serve out a 5-year sentence or whatever the max for this crime is probably puts them at a greater risk to re-offend and hurt someone in the community than forcing them to be under supervision. The problem is that that supervision should likely be for life based on the severity of the crime they've committed.

EDIT: Would it be possible to introduce legislation that allows for the application of the "dangerous offender" designation for violent assaults and sex crimes? I don't really see how that would violate the Charter but I'm not a lawyer.

[afc wimbledon]

46!! my dog is smarter

[chemgear]

Originally Posted by Otto-matic

https://globalnews.ca/news/3785288/s...-calgary-teen/

A Grade 12 student was waiting for a bus after watching movies at a friend’s house when the brothers grabbed her and forced her into a nearby alley. Corey smashed her phone.

Each took a turn raping and sodomizing her; Corey forced her to perform oral sex.

They then took her to their Martindale home, where she was again repeatedly raped by both brothers.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by rubecube

EDIT: Would it be possible to introduce legislation that allows for the application of the "dangerous offender" designation for violent assaults and sex crimes? I don't really see how that would violate the Charter but I'm not a lawyer.

Completely possible and already in place. My guess is both these idiots will end up getting a 'DO' designation down the road after a few more assaults.

[Nyah]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine...hopath/524502/

I'm quoting this because I didn't see it when it was originally posted and it's absolutely worth a read if you haven't yet. Very interesting.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

Completely possible and already in place. My guess is both these idiots will end up getting a 'DO' designation down the road after a few more assaults.

I thought it only applied to murder charges but that's good to know. I feel like some things should be automatic DO designations, rape definitely being one of them.

[Weitz]

Yawn, more criminals in Canada who won't get the punishment they deserve.

[Phil1111]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

Two points, in all my years of working with criminals (25 and counting in one way or another) virtually all of them were mentally low functioning at least, IQ's in the 90's or so, illiterate, poor impulse control and almost non existent decision making skills, the number of criminals I worked with that were 'normal' and did crime was infinitesimally small.

Second point, I'm happy to jail people for vastly longer time periods if jails are better, if you accept that most people you are locking up have little ability to avoid jail and need to be locked up for very long times then we as a society need to build jails that function more than a violence ridden craphole where the strongest pray on the weakest while the staff ignore whats going on as 'they're all crims anyway, eff em'.

I agree but would add that just because you have a mental illness, low IQ, poor decision making skills arising from FAS, etc. Dosn't mean you don't know right from wrong. Dosn't mean that you knew that you were committing a crime. Many re offend because of the overriding calculation in their minds that they think they can do it and get away with it. i.e. not get caught.

[Erick Estrada]

An IQ of 46 is considered in the range of Moderate ######ation. It's hard to make an argument that a person with that low intelligence could make rational decisions.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Phil1111

Many re offend because of the overriding calculation in their minds that they think they can do it and get away with it. i.e. not get caught.

It beggars belief that someone with a 46 IQ makes any kind of calculation about probabilities of getting caught. People like that do something because they think it will make them feel good right now. The consequences a day, a week, or year down the road doesn't even enter their brains.