Acts of Terrorism in Edmonton: Officer stabbed, pedestrians run down

[Phil1111]

Originally Posted by Fighting Banana Slug

So, if we are willing to have a discussion on this, on what basis do you say that?

In essence IS subjects of the caliphate do not make a pledge to Allah. Instead they make a pledge of allegiance to Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi.
As the leader of the IS he has defined it as a political movement for personal political goals. Instead of a religious one where religion trumps political.

https://www.newstatesman.com/world-a...-islamic-state

https://www.brookings.edu/wp-content...amic-State.pdf
The above is a longer treatise on the subject.

[Fighting Banana Slug]

Originally Posted by Phil1111

In essence IS subjects of the caliphate do not make a pledge to Allah. Instead they make a pledge of allegiance to Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi.
As the leader of the IS he has defined it as a political movement for personal political goals. Instead of a religious one where religion trumps political.

https://www.newstatesman.com/world-a...-islamic-state

https://www.brookings.edu/wp-content...amic-State.pdf
The above is a longer treatise on the subject.

Thanks for the link. I read the brooking document and I don't see how you can draw the conclusion that ISIS isnt Islamic. Don't get me wrong, I totally understand that the vast majority of Muslims reject ISIS, and that the victims of ISIS are predominately Muslim, but is there any doubt that they see themselves as true Muslims? Do you doubt their sincerity in that?

[Crumpy-Gunt]

Isis isnt Islamic. If isis was islamic you wouldnt be safe. Your cab driver would kill you. Your kids math teacher would blow up the school. Muslims are everywhere and Islam is everywhere. So its safe to say isis isnt Islamic. Isis is political in nature. Their goals are mainly political goals. Their enemies and rivals are politicians. They arent a religious movement. They are a political movement of people who view themselves as religious. If they were a religious EXTREMISTS like Bin Laden they would target saudi arabia because mecca is there and Israel because of the Palestine issue and the 2nd holiest site in Islam being in Jerusalem. Simply put isis are not islamic. Muslims, by the quran are not allowed to do the things isis have done.

Killing innocent people or other innocent muslims isnt something 'halal'. Thus isis isnt Islamic

Your point about how these people see themselves is wrong to me. If I see myself as the captain of the calgary flames and go do something terrible does it reflect on the calgary flames?

They see themselves as true muslims. Just like paedophiles see themselves as good humans. Just like criminals see themselves as innocent.

In the other thread about vegas shootings people are already suggesting mental illness and a tumor on the brain. Essentially making excuses for a man who killed 60 and injured around 300 innocent human beings.

We dont consider these terrorists are crazy deranged people. Which is what they are. We have been taught by the media to see this as a muslim thing. "They just kill people once in a while. Its something they do because of their religion. Not because they are sick twisted murderers with no morals. Its their religion that makes them kill."

Quite frankly that narrative is stupid. There are billions of Muslims. The vast majority of them are appalled and embarrassed by terrorism. They shorten their names to Moe and Joe from Muhammad and Yusuf because they are sick of dealing with it. 99.9 percent of muslims have nothing to do with this. They are normal people.

Its like walking up to a German American and asking them to answer for the nazis. Or guilt tripping a white male for the treatment of Native Americans or black slaves. Yelling at a Chinese person in Calgary because SOME people
In China eat dogs even though the majority are repulsed by it.

If people want to discuss radical islam, its origins and goals. Wahhabism/Salafism. Saudi sponsored and propogated terrorism from Bosnia to Somalia to 9/11. The fact our government just sold weapons to saudi arabia which has sponsored terrorism for ages, beheads and hangs and stones people daily on live tv. Women cant even drive there ffs. Why dont we debate the literal Mecca of Islam and its role in what we see with political islam. The western fed fued between sunni and shia. The role of petroleum and the petro dollar in all of this.

I think an actual debate on these topics would be good. But a good debate takes 2 mature intelligent sides. Nobody is going to debate people posting quotes from racist websites.

How we can deal with these terrorists and what can be done. Im interested in that. But as far as the typical right wing trolls who make posts like that pesky religion of peace again, theres no point in a debate with close minded fools like that.

[Crumpy-Gunt]

There are only 2 possible options here. Its either isis is 100 percent Islamic to the word and 99.9 percent of Muslims are wrong about their own religion and not true Muslims.

OR 99.9 percent of Muslims are normal human beings and the .1 percent of terrorists are crazy extremists driven mostly by politics and mixing politics with religion.

So which is it? Are most muslims not muslims? Or do the worst muslims represent islam?

Does the KKK represent white people?

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Crumpy-Gunt

There are only 2 possible options here. Its either isis is 100 percent Islamic to the word and 99.9 percent of Muslims are wrong about their own religion and not true Muslims.

OR 99.9 percent of Muslims are normal human beings and the .1 percent of terrorists are crazy extremists driven mostly by politics and mixing politics with religion.

So which is it? Are most muslims not muslims? Or do the worst muslims represent islam?

Does the KKK represent white people?

Isn't your argument that the KKK aren't white people though.

You are assuming that there is one correct denomination that is representative of a religion. That is not a logically sound position. It's just a No True Scotsmen fallacy.

I would argue Isis doesn't represent Islam but it still is part of Islam. The Westboro baptist church doesn't represent Christianity but they are Christian

[Crumpy-Gunt]

I didnt say isis arent muslims. I said isis dont represent islam. They view themselves as muslim but break all of the rules. Quite frankly it doesnt matter what one views themselves as. Borat is the king of the castle. The naked emperor views himself as clothed. Most psychopathic killers dont view themselves as such. Isis viewing themselves as muslim is no more relevant to islam than the terrible things people who viewed themselves as Christian did. It doesnt represent christianity. It represent those twisted slave trading individuals as human beings. Is christianity a part of it? Yes. But can you find a clear link between them being christian and that as the cause for the crimes they comitted? Is a murdering christian representative of christianity, no matter how christian he views himself? NO

Maybe thats a better analogy


Isis arent a denomination. If they were they would be wahhabis.

I was rebutting Bananas post where he asked are you saying isis isnt islamic.

Isis isnt islamic.
Not isis arent muslim individuals..

If one says they are a certain religion i cant say to them they arent.

However their values arent islamic. They are condemned by the vast majority of muslims. They have killed mainly muslims. They are being fought by muslims. Yet people still cant wrap their head around the fact isis isjt islamic. Therefore they dont represent islam or muslims as a whole. Obviously...or else they wouldnt be killing muslims or being fought off by muslims.

How is that the equivalent of me saying the KKK isnt white?

Maybe i used a bad analogy?

Why dont you address the rest of my post rather than picking at my KKK analogy.

[Snuffleupagus]

Please!!

The groups of ISIS, Al-Qaeda, Taliban, Hamas, Hezbollah and Boko Haram all have 2 things in common

Islam and Terrorism

How many members of ISIS..etc. are Christian, Hindu, Buddhist or even Atheist?

[Crumpy-Gunt]

They dont REPRESENT Islam. Their ideologies arent islamic. Go back to islamwatch.org or wherever you came from.

[Phil1111]

Originally Posted by Fighting Banana Slug

Thanks for the link. I read the brooking document and I don't see how you can draw the conclusion that ISIS isnt Islamic. Don't get me wrong, I totally understand that the vast majority of Muslims reject ISIS, and that the victims of ISIS are predominately Muslim, but is there any doubt that they see themselves as true Muslims? Do you doubt their sincerity in that?

1.6 Billion followers of Islam. There was a Christian minister rabblerouser in the US about two years ago. It was shortly after a copy of the Koran was burned in Pakistan. Riots in Pakistan followed and he hoped to achieve the same results in Dallas Texas.

He and some followers were going to parade around with posters denigrating Allah. Then burn copies of the Koran. All to spark riots among Muslims in the Dallas area. The Imams told their followers not to do anything and not one Muslim showed up. Not one did anything. The "Christian" minister sulked back to Alabama??? or wherever in the SE US he was from.

Blaming the acts of IS on Islam is like blaming every Christian for the acts of the RC. clergy for child sexual abuse.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Crumpy-Gunt

They dont REPRESENT Islam. Their ideologies arent islamic. Go back to islamwatch.org or wherever you came from.

I agree with what your first point but I dont think you can say they aren't Islam. They definately are a perversion of it. I could go through and identify why many evangelical Christian denominations aren't Christians and how evangelical Christians believe that Catholics aren't Christians but that doesn't change the fact that both follow Christian books of worship and follow some of the texts but not others.

I think it's key that this is recognized because the best way to fight Radical Islam at least in the west is for the Muslim community to identify people who are being radicalized. And it looks like in this case someone did identify this person as being potentially readilized. That person was likely a Muslim following Islam.

What You can't do is blame Islam as a whole for Isis.

[DuffMan]

So, it turns out it was a friend of mines kid and his friend standing in the alley, his friend got hit, but his kid jumped out of the way a second before.
crazy.

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Considering hate speech is against the law, I’m surprised this is allowed on this forum. I know the laws against hate speech are fairly specific but some of the content has absolutely fallen within that realm from this poster, especially if you access the sources of the information.

It’s genuinely disturbing that someone can freely post that stuff, especially with the flimsiest of excuses (always “stumbling” upon it). Nobody accesses that much hate-group propaganda by accident. People have a hard enough time talking frankly about heated issues like the violence in Islam as it is, letting hate-propaganda spread in the midst of it makes it significantly more difficult.

And how many threads have I jumped into to make the same claim, only to see another thread pop up using the same rhetoric? It is disgusting, in either side of any debate.

Let's not pretend this issue goes only one way.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Did people forget Crumpy-Gunt's schtick? He was run out of the American politics thread months back for pure unadulterated crazy (literally everyone was a white supremacist) and we haven't heard from him since, until now. This is not a person worth taking seriously.

[DiracSpike]

A group that's called the Islamic State isn't Islamic? OK.

I believe your intentions are to protect the vast majority of Muslims who aren't extremists from being painted as such, but being delusional isn't all that helpful.

I think most people in society can handle the nuance that a small minority of Muslims interpret their religion in a violent way but it's not representative of the population as a whole. Not all Muslims are IS members but all IS members are Muslims.

[Fighting Banana Slug]

Originally Posted by Phil1111

1.6 Billion followers of Islam. There was a Christian minister rabblerouser in the US about two years ago. It was shortly after a copy of the Koran was burned in Pakistan. Riots in Pakistan followed and he hoped to achieve the same results in Dallas Texas.

He and some followers were going to parade around with posters denigrating Allah. Then burn copies of the Koran. All to spark riots among Muslims in the Dallas area. The Imams told their followers not to do anything and not one Muslim showed up. Not one did anything. The "Christian" minister sulked back to Alabama??? or wherever in the SE US he was from.

Blaming the acts of IS on Islam is like blaming every Christian for the acts of the RC. clergy for child sexual abuse.

At no point did I "blame the acts of IS on Islam". The fact that 1.6 Billion followers of Islam are perfectly peaceful people has not been questioned. The question is whether there is anything that can be meaningfully discussed in relation to interpretation or misinterpretation of Islamic texts?

As for your analogy, I don't blame every Christian for the bad acts of the RC in the same way I don't blame every bad act of ISIS on muslims. However, I do question Roman Catholic ideology and structure to see if anything systemic within Catholicism might have made the child sexual abuse happen, or made it worse. I think that should fully be on debate, because having men (priests) in a position of power and authority over children, who take a vow of abstinence, whose political inner workings are shrouded in secrecy, whose influence of those in secular power (thinking of the incidents in and around Boston in particular) absolutely made the situation worse and is worthy of discussion, if not outright derision.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Crumpy-Gunt

There are only 2 possible options here. Its either isis is 100 percent Islamic to the word and 99.9 percent of Muslims are wrong about their own religion and not true Muslims.

OR 99.9 percent of Muslims are normal human beings and the .1 percent of terrorists are crazy extremists driven mostly by politics and mixing politics with religion.

So which is it? Are most muslims not muslims? Or do the worst muslims represent islam?

Does the KKK represent white people?

That's absurd, and your logic is totally flawed.

There's no one true definition of Islam. Just as Christianity, a religion based on pacifism and forgiveness, was warped into the inquisition and crusades, any religion can be warped.

The simple fact of the matter is that you do have Islamic preachers openly preaching about violence, and that has to be dealt with. Are all followers of Islam advocating violence? Of course not. The ones who aren't aren't any more responsible for the violence than any other human being. However, that doesn't mean you should ignore the sizeable religious infrastructure that is resulting in violence.

[Ducay]

Any real news? Do they know where this guy was radicalized? (ie in Edmonton at a mosque, outreach group, or internet?)

[2Stonedbirds]

Originally Posted by Ducay

Any real news? Do they know where this guy was radicalized? (ie in Edmonton at a mosque, outreach group, or internet?)

https://www.google.ca/amp/www.cbc.ca/amp/1.4316074

Sounds like he had a problem with polytheism, thinks the leaders of ISIS are pretty cool dudes, told people these sorts of crazy ideas, was reported aaaand...
"Insufficient evidence" and "not a threat".

So essentially asylum seekers from war torn countries with extreme views on society are totally cool until they are not.

[Crumpy-Gunt]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

Did people forget Crumpy-Gunt's schtick? He was run out of the American politics thread months back for pure unadulterated crazy (literally everyone was a white supremacist) and we haven't heard from him since, until now. This is not a person worth taking seriously.

My schtick? Trolling trolls?
I was run out?

Half the posters in that thread were alt right losers who used the word #### and libtard every other sentence. So i trolled them by calling them white supremacists and they all started crying about stifling discussion and how they cant hold stupid views without being called stupid. Boo hoo. The thread was titled what are we going to do about islam ffs.

We havent heard from him since until now? Am I your dad? Does it bug you that I havent posted in the off topic forum since then? Mostly because i dont want to see the same neckbearded 4chan posters like snuff and resurrection sharing their wealth of knowledge on islam.

You are one of my favs though. The dude who is an expert on Islam but doesnt know anything about it.

The best part of your post is telling people not to take me seriously. I think people can decide on their own. Im not posting to be friends with people. Im posting my opinion. Post yours instead of coming into threads to whine like a baby about what other peoples opinions are.

[White Out 403]

Pew has done great research into the beliefs and views of Muslims across the world, and the idea that 99.5% of Muslims reject ISIS and want nothing but peace and tolerance is horse ####, and I wish people would stop lying about it. The numbers have been done, questions asked, the people themselves have spoken. Google pew research and look for yourself. In even moderate Muslim countries Sharia is very popular and killing apostates is hardly the fringe. North American Muslims are VERY different than those found in the rest of the world, they've definitely molded to our western values a lot more.

But let's stop pretending that in places like Turkey, Indonesia, India, the Muslim vast majority population there are super tolerant of gays, apostates, and non believers. It's simply false.