Arena negotiation discussion. UPD: Flames release their proposal

[Red Slinger]

I think there's a case to be made that the Flames should receive public funds. It's debatable how much they actually contribute to the economy and it's also debatable how much they affect the standing of the city around the world.

What I don't think is debatable is that the Flames (and most professional big-league sports teams) bring an intangible element to the city. For instance, the city is transformed during the playoffs, particularly if the team has some success. There is a different vibe and the whole place feels alive.

It's apropos that there has been a debate about public art in the city because I relate professional sports to public art in some ways. They both bring intangible elements to the city that add to the enjoyment of the place by many (not all) of it's citizens. Of course, most public art isn't a for-profit venture but from a citizens perspective they both require a public investment.

I think most of us agree that some form of public funding is appropriate. I think the City offer is just okay but much more reasonable than the Flames offer.

As a hardcore fan of the Flames for the last 27 years I have never been as disappointed in this team as I am right now. I truly think the best option for all involved at this point is for the Flames to sell the team. This would have never happened if Harley Hotchkiss and Doc Seamen were still around.

[Reneeee]

Originally Posted by Cappy

HAHAHAHA.

Trust me, no one thinks Winnipeg is better than Quebec City because the Peg has the Jets. Give your head a shake.

Thats a bold statement. I'm sure people who live in Winnipeg would beg to differ. Shaking my head isn't helping to sway my opinion.

All of this local economy talk has nothing to do with the point here, having a team provides another form of entertainment for Calgarians and if we lose that it would be a sad day.

Hell, losing any form of baseball is a sore spot for me as well. I don't think going to Okotoks is good enough. Calgary should has some form of amateur ball.

[northcrunk]

The Flames would use the arena part time but there are a lot of benefits to having a new arena that seem to be lost in the back in fourth bitch fest between Bettman and Nenshi. Big concerts, conventions and events have been skipping Calgary since the new arena was built in Edmonton. The problem has gotten worse since the arena has been finished. All of those spin off dollars that could have been spent on business in Calgary are now being spent in Edmonton.

[Red Slinger]

Originally Posted by northcrunk

The Flames would use the arena part time but there are a lot of benefits to having a new arena that seem to be lost in the back in fourth bitch fest between Bettman and Nenshi. Big concerts, conventions and events have been skipping Calgary since the new arena was built in Edmonton. The problem has gotten worse since the arena has been finished. All of those spin off dollars that could have been spent on business in Calgary are now being spent in Edmonton.

How many spin off dollars exactly and at what price does it become worth it?

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by Reneeee

Thats a bold statement. I'm sure people who live in Winnipeg would beg to differ. Shaking my head isn't helping to sway my opinion.

All of this local economy talk has nothing to do with the point here, having a team provides another form of entertainment for Calgarians and if we lose that it would be a sad day.

Hell, losing any form of baseball is a sore spot for me as well. I don't think going to Okotoks is good enough. Calgary should has some form of amateur ball.

What? you don't think Winnipeggers would concede that their city is trash? no ####. Coming from a crappy small town, everyone knows the crappy small town next to you is crappier than your own. That doesn't prove it isn't crappy.

I love baseball. I wish we had a MILB team here; but, I'm pretty sure the city of Calgary has survived without one.

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by northcrunk

The Flames would use the arena part time but there are a lot of benefits to having a new arena that seem to be lost in the back in fourth bitch fest between Bettman and Nenshi. Big concerts, conventions and events have been skipping Calgary since the new arena was built in Edmonton. The problem has gotten worse since the arena has been finished. All of those spin off dollars that could have been spent on business in Calgary are now being spent in Edmonton.

We aren't getting big conventions because we don't have big convention space. That's another issue entirely and one that the city has long looked to address. Having a large convention center is a much larger factor in spurring economic development than an arena.

If you look at many of the success stories regarding sports stadiums and city development, look where their convention centers are...

[Reneeee]

Originally Posted by Cappy

What, you don't think Winnipeggers would concede that their city is trash? no ####. Coming from a crappy small town, everyone knows the crappy small town next to you is crappier than your own. That doesn't prove it isn't crappy.

I love baseball. I wish we had a MILB team here; but, I'm pretty sure the city of Calgary has survived without one.

This isn't an argument about economics. It's an argument about pro sports. I really could care less if the Flames provide any economic benefit to the city. It provided an emotional benefit to me through my fandom.


People are getting bent out of shape because they are soooooo concerned about all these studies which say that cities don't benefit monetarily from a pro sports team. Well do they benefit monetarily from building 15 libraries? No, they dont. Library's are losing investments but they are still ones they choose to make because it provides and education benefit to the city.


The City of Calgary wants to keep the Flames around, and a deal will be done using public dollars, now they just need to sort out how many egos can step aside before they can actually negotiate with cooler heads.

[Flash Walken]

^idiotic take is idiotic, detached from the reality around us

[taxbuster]

Originally Posted by Reneeee

Well do they benefit monetarily from building 15 libraries? No, they dont. Library's are losing investments but they are still ones they choose to make because it provides and education benefit to the city.


The City of Calgary wants to keep the Flames around, and a deal will be done using public dollars, now they just need to sort out how many egos can step aside before they can actually negotiate with cooler heads.

Libraries are not investments: they are cultural institutions. Furthermore, they are *owned* by the City, not private individuals, and they contribute to the cultural wealth of the City, not to the financial wealth of said private individuals.

The only way a deal gets done is if the Flames ownership does a large and public mea culpa (a sort of "my bad" for those who don't know Latin) and makes an offer or set of parameters that are actually reasonable.

The Flames are trying to make it about Nenshi, but that misses the point: he is but one of many, and there are numerous others who believe that you can't repeat the Edmonton mistake. They will pay for that mistake in spades for decades.

[CorbeauNoir]

Truly it's a wonder the city of Winnipeg didn't collectively Jonestown itself under the weight of sheer boredom in '97.

It's a wonder they didn't come to the brink of it every off-season even when they did/do have the Jets, for that matter.

[Manhattanboy]

Originally Posted by Red Slinger

I think there's a case to be made that the Flames should receive public funds. It's debatable how much they actually contribute to the economy and it's also debatable how much they affect the standing of the city around the world.

What I don't think is debatable is that the Flames (and most professional big-league sports teams) bring an intangible element to the city. For instance, the city is transformed during the playoffs, particularly if the team has some success. There is a different vibe and the whole place feels alive.

It's apropos that there has been a debate about public art in the city because I relate professional sports to public art in some ways. They both bring intangible elements to the city that add to the enjoyment of the place by many (not all) of it's citizens. Of course, most public art isn't a for-profit venture but from a citizens perspective they both require a public investment.

I think most of us agree that some form of public funding is appropriate. I think the City offer is just okay but much more reasonable than the Flames offer.

As a hardcore fan of the Flames for the last 27 years I have never been as disappointed in this team as I am right now. I truly think the best option for all involved at this point is for the Flames to sell the team. This would have never happened if Harley Hotchkiss and Doc Seamen were still around.

Great post. I think the NHL received some of its best leadership when Harley Hotchkiss was chairman of the Board of Governors. It really is too bad he is no longer with us. He was a man who on the one hand could have reigned in Bettman and on the other been able to have reasonable discussions with Nenshi. Even an ego like Nenshi would have had some respect for Harley. Neither Nenshi nor Edwards have any use for the other.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by Reneeee

Thats a bold statement. I'm sure people who live in Winnipeg would beg to differ. Shaking my head isn't helping to sway my opinion.

All of this local economy talk has nothing to do with the point here, having a team provides another form of entertainment for Calgarians and if we lose that it would be a sad day.

Hell, losing any form of baseball is a sore spot for me as well. I don't think going to Okotoks is good enough. Calgary should has some form of amateur ball.

We have a venue for baseball, not enough calgarians were willing to support the last team that played there. And you're going with "Calgary should have some form of amateur baseball. I guess my question is do you have any argument to support this position other than the fact the you want it?

All this local economy talk has nothing to do with the point here? Better tell that to Ken King and the flames, they're the ones telling us that's why we should donate money to them.

[Flash Walken]

lol, reigned in bettman, as if he just happens to spend a bunch of time in front of Calgary media of his own volition.

I mean, the caricatures being trotted out during these kinds of discussions; who dreams of this stuff?

Hotchiss doesn't have to reign in bettman because bettman WORKS FOR HOTCHKISS.

Are you saying Murray and Al and Allan are 'unable' to reel in Bettman. Bettman is an uncontrollable loose canon and if it wasn't for him, things would be running more smoothly?

The more the flames talk out of both sides of their mouths the stupider they look.

[Jason14h]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

^idiotic take is idiotic, detached from the reality around us

Why is it idiotic? At least it's honest.

I agree with the above post. I like hockey. My friends like hockey.

Know what we don't enjoy as much? Libraries. Music Halls. Most other forms of the arts. (Garbage on sticks at the side of the highway)

But do I think these should not have public money? No.

The reality is that cities WILL pay for an arena. So eventually, if the city of Calgary won't play ball, the team WILL leave.

I guess we can have the distinction of being the city that 'won' the battle against the owners, and have no arena and no team.

There is a healthy middle ground, and both these groups are idiotic. But can we stop acting like giving $ for an arena that will be used for multiple activities and provide entertainment for many people is throw away money?

Lots of stuff the city spends money on doesn't generate a net positive return. In fact, if it did, we wouldn't constantly be running deficits

[CorbeauNoir]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

Why is it idiotic? At least it's honest.

I agree with the above post. I like hockey. My friends like hockey.

Know what we don't enjoy as much? Libraries. Music Halls. Most other forms of the arts. (Garbage on sticks at the side of the highway)

What do you do all summer?

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Reneeee

Yes and yes, both cities were worse off when they didnt have a pro team and now Winnipeg is above Quebec City in that margin. Hell even Vegas has jumped up a peg in my books in being a more desirable tourist destination, because now there is a 4th option for people besides Drinking, Gambling, watching a magic show / concert and attending a Golden Knights game.

Anybody who believes a city is the same or better without a pro sports team really doesn't value pro sports

Show me any evidence that this is true.

Let's use you as the annecdote.

How many times per decade to you visit Winnipeg before, during, and now. How about Quebec City. How about Vegas.

I'll take real data but you seem to want to play annecdote so how has it affect your visits to Winnipeg.

As for your final statement it isn't that the people making this argument don't value pro sports. It's that there isn't any evidence to support the argument that a city is better with pro sports. As a fan of the Flames I think the city is better with them here. What I think though is a terrible reason to argue that the city is better off with them here.

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by CorbeauNoir

What do you do all summer?

Have you been in Calgary during the summer?!

There is no hockey! it sucks!

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by GGG

Show me any evidence that this is true.

Let's use you as the annecdote.

How many times per decade to you visit Winnipeg before, during, and now. How about Quebec City. How about Vegas.

I'll take real data but you seem to want to play annecdote so how has it affect your visits to Winnipeg.

As for your final statement it isn't that the people making this argument don't value pro sports. It's that there isn't any evidence to support the argument that a city is better with pro sports. As a fan of the Flames I think the city is better with them here. What I think though is a terrible reason to argue that the city is better off with them here.

he isn't basing this on any data, he's said as much.

that's what makes it idiotic.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

The reality is that cities WILL pay for an arena. So eventually, if the city of Calgary won't play ball, the team WILL leave.

I guess we can have the distinction of being the city that 'won' the battle against the owners, and have no arena and no team.

There is a healthy middle ground, and both these groups are idiotic. But can we stop acting like giving $ for an arena that will be used for multiple activities and provide entertainment for many people is throw away money?

Lots of stuff the city spends money on doesn't generate a net positive return. In fact, if it did, we wouldn't constantly be running deficits

Can we also stop pretending like we need to give the flames whatever deal they want?

The city isn't trying to run the flames out of town, they're trying to get a good deal for the taxpayers. The city is clearly willing to commit to help fund the arena, it's not as if they've said no to that, they are just trying to get a better return on their investment than what the flames are proposing.

IMO the league getting involved has less to do with being worried about the flames leaving Calgary and more to do with them knowing that if nenshi gets too good of a deal it will have a ripple effect on future arena negotiations for other franchises. We praise treliving for looking out for what's best for the team and being a hardline contract negotiator with our players compared to other GMs around the league. Right now our mayor is looking out for the best interests of our taxpayers and his efforts should be equally praised, the way people are reacting you'd think the team had already been sold. A deal will get done.

[Reneeee]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

he isn't basing this on any data, he's said as much.

that's what makes it idiotic.

What sort of data do you suppose is necessary? The tangible data that I would never bother going to Winnipeg without the Jets and now that the jets are there I'm considering a road trip or taking a flight out there to watch the Flames play the jets??

Is that what you're looking for. Sorry I've not hired an analyst to bring in the number for all you numbers guys. The idiotic thing is calling somebody else or their standpoint idiotic.

This thread specifically is a great example of why this city cant negotiate with the Flames... Too many egos thinking they are smarter than one another.

I never said I was correct in my assertation of facts, I just believe the years Winnipeg were sans Jets, they were worse of than the current era when their team has returned, and I'm sure Winnipeg residents don't mind having them back either. I'm even positive if you asked them, probably about 25% of the residents would say their city is better with them than without. Sure its intangible, but how does somebody really place real world dollars on passion... (i'll save you some googling - You can't)