[CP Story] Third Line Woes

[FBI]

Originally Posted by Flamefan1

The vast majority of posters on this site and for that matter Flames fans recognize the value Ferland adds major value to the Monahan, Gaudreau line. If that line is kept together for the majority of this season Ferlands on ice performance will prove these few doubters wrong. It seems to be only a few posters including Ricardo, FBI and Dino7c, but they just happen to express their negativity towards Ferland often. Ferland has been mismanaged by a few coaches and as a result has fewer points than he should have. Johny will be able to play his game with Ferland on his line and IMO will be at or above a point per game.

Whoa down there buddy, Ferly is the F for my nickname. Love the guy, think he is going to be amazing and pleeeesse don't lump me in with Ricardo!

[dino7c]

It goes both ways too...for those who do think he has what it takes to be a top line player...you shouldn't be giving him a pass for trying hard, getting good chances. It is now about results.

I remember people talking about how well he played in the playoffs against the Ducks

0-0-0

IF he can pull it off though the Flames have a seriously dangerous team with forward and defensive depth that I think will be tough to match!

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by dino7c

for those who do think he has what it takes to be a top line player...you shouldn't be giving him a pass for trying hard, getting good chances. It is now about results.

I remember people talking about how well he played in the playoffs against the Ducks

0-0-0

Results over a large sample size, because it's impossible to remove the luck component out of small sample sizes. Like for example...

1) 4 Games .
2) He wasn't the only guy on his line to put up those numbers. The other two guys just happened to pad their stats on the power play (where Ferland was not a participant). Take out PP scoring

Monahan
0-0-0
Gaudreau
0-0-0

Unless you wanna die on that "Ferland dragged Gaudreau and Monahan down so they didn't score" hill with Ricardo... you just have to admit that it's absurd to bring up that stat line when that line simply dominated the chances.

[kehatch]

I absolutely agree we need a legitimate winger to play with Bennett. Let's not get him off to another slow start with a line proven not to work.

It isn't brain surgery. They won't break up Monahan and Gaudreau so that is a pair. Backlund and Frolik are obviously a pair. They need to pair an impact winger with Bennett and the only one left that makes sense is Tkachuk.

Gaudreau-Monahan-XXXX
XXXX-Backlund-Frolik
Tkachuk-Bennett-XXXX

Simply add a combination of Brouwer, Versteeg, and Ferland where they fit best. End of story. (Unless your willing to split up Monahan and Gaudreau. In which case you switch Gaudreau and Tkachuk first.)

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Results over a large sample size, because it's impossible to remove the luck component out of small sample sizes. Like for example...

1) 4 Games .
2) He wasn't the only guy on his line to put up those numbers. The other two guys just happened to pad their stats on the power play (where Ferland was not a participant). Take out PP scoring

Monahan
0-0-0
Gaudreau
0-0-0

Unless you wanna die on that "Ferland dragged Gaudreau and Monahan down so they didn't score" hill with Ricardo... you just have to admit that it's absurd to bring up that stat line when that line simply dominated the chances.

EXACTLY

Those two guys got roasted and he got a pass...ZERO points in a playoff series isn't good enough for a top line player

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Itse

I'm not saying there's no potential there, but I think it's fair to point out that Ferland doesn't have the numbers yet to prove he belongs on the first line.

Sure. But if you watch his actual play he meshes very well on the top line. And his numbers don't reflect only the time he's been on the top line. Ferland is a late blooming powerforward who overcame addiction problems. He's just scratching the surface of his potential and you hear that from his teammates, coach and GM.

If all you can think about is numbers then it's time to actually watch the hockey. Ferland shows skill, hockey sense and skating on the ice. You'd have to be blind or not watching to not have seen his potential by now.

Based on Ricardo's posting history it's hard to imagine he's actually watching the games at all. His views and what I watch on the ice have nothing on common.

[Mike F]

The Flames need to decide what to do about Backlund.

If Backlund is in their long term plans (and they're in his), then Sam Bennett's best role in the organization is on the top line RW. Jankowski looks ready for the NHL, and is more of a natural fit for a centre. So if you have to play one of Jankowski or Bennett on the wing, I like moving Bennett.

In summary... I like:

Gaudreau - Monahan - Bennett
Tkachuk - Backlund - Frolik
Versteeg - Jankowski - Ferland

better than:

Gaudreau - Monahan - Ferland
Tkachuk - Backlund - Frolik
Vesteeg - Bennett - Brouwer
______ - Jankowski - ________

[pepper24]

Good article. Bennett and/or Brouwer having breakout seasons just as important as Smith being legit #1 goalie this season.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Strange Brew]

Good article. Thanks Bingo.

I have high expectations for the defense and with how this team is built, the D should be making life easier for the forwards with good breakout passes, better possession and more offensive zone time.

The forward group is not yet what it needs to be but the back end should help make up for it.

[Karl]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Good article. Thanks Bingo.

I have high expectations for the defense and with how this team is built, the D should be making life easier for the forwards with good breakout passes, better possession and more offensive zone time.

The forward group is not yet what it needs to be but the back end should help make up for it.

Bottom pairing D group, especially if Gully has Bartkowski being the 6th D-man is still a legit concern.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Mike F

Gaudreau - Monahan - Bennett

No. You don't invest a year in a guy learning to play center only to shift him to wing. The team sees him as a center, they invested a year to season him as a center, he is going to play center. To make it even more of a bad idea, he's playing his off wing, which would require another investment in learning the position.

I agree with the pairs philosophy. Monahan-Gaudreau, Backlund-Frolik, Bennett-Tkachuk. That is the makings of the top six. The next thing to figure out is the complimentary piece on each line. Personally I would go with the following.

Gaudreau-Monahan-Ferland

Ferland provides speed and some sand paper that is lacking on the line. He has size, some feistiness, and the ability to finish. He is still a work in progress, but he has shown the ability to work well this pair and generate results.

Tkachuk-Bennett-Brouwer

This is a pair that is going to need some veteran presence to keep them reigned in. Youthful exuberance after the whistle could be a bot of challenge for these two and a big guy with some experience and smarts will help them out in that regard. Brouwer plays the game at the same speed as these two so should be a nice complimentary fit. He also can do the mucking and greasy work when required.

Jankowksi-Backlund-Frolik

I see this pair as a training ground for players. I think that Jankowski has all the skill, if not more, than Tkachuk and could easily fit into the same roll on that line. My main motivation here is for Jankowski to learn from Backlund. I'm not sure Backlund is going to be here past the trade deadline, so they need to groom a replacement. What better way to groom his replacement that letting him play 30-40 games on his wing and then transition to center on the line? Having the opportunity to play in all the same situations, and being second to take draws, will be a great learning experience for him. It will also inform the staff if there is any chemistry with Frolik as a possible pair should the Flames lose Backlund as a result of salary demands. The important thing here is the transition to center for Jankowski as Backlund likely disappears from the linep at some point in the season.

I think these lines are the best use of the already established pairs and then setup well for the long term development of core players. The pieces come together well IMO. The only one that concerns me is Brouwer, but Lazar is in the mix for that slot as well. My worry is the youthful enthusiasm of that group might get dangerous. I also think the Flames see Lazar at center and a Stajan replacement, so playing fourth line with Stajan would be a similar learning situation that I have suggested with Jankowski and Backlund.

For the first time in a long time the Flames have actual options at several positions, and have guys in the minors that could also step into the mix. Good times. I just wish the fans would appreciate it a bit more.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by slybomb

Gaudreau-Bennett-Ferland
Tkachuk-Monahan-Versteeg
Jankowski-Backlund-Frolik
Glass-Stajan-Brouwer

I like the chemistry that Bennett has with Gaudreau and if you put Versteeg with Tkachuk and Monahan, they will have a guy that can distribute the puck. As for the 3rd line, it would be our shutdown line that can work the possession game and pot a few goals, they are all smart hockey players.

The problem with Tkachuk and Monahan together is neither is especially fast or good at gaining the zone. Meanwhile, Bennett and Gaudreau both like to carry the puck and can back off defensemen with their speed. I like Tkachuk-Bennett a lot more than Tkachuk-Monahan.

[gunnner]

Gaudreau-Monahan-Ferland
Tkachuk-Backlund-Frolik
3A:Bennet-Jankowski/Versteeg-
3B:Jankowski-Bennet-Versteeg-
Hathaway-Lazar-Brouwer
Stajan

Let Bennet and Janko each play 40 games at Center. All problems solved.

[Erick Estrada]

I think most teams in this league are top heavy and the Flames are not isolated in this case. Personally I feel the lack of top line RW is a far bigger issue for this team. I don't want to start the Ferland debate but on how many teams in this league is he starting on the first line? Outside of the annual goaltending question mark that's the real issue that is keeping this team from being a great team.

[edslunch]

Ferland auditioned for the top line and showed enough to warrant a shot. This year is his opportunity to show that he has grown into that spot. I expect the jury will be out for the first half of the year but if the team is patient they will have a clear answer by the end of the season (and I think the answer will be yes)

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by edslunch

Ferland auditioned for the top line and showed enough to warrant a shot. This year is his opportunity to show that he has grown into that spot. I expect the jury will be out for the first half of the year but if the team is patient they will have a clear answer by the end of the season (and I think the answer will be yes)

A half season? I think we will know a lot sooner than that. In the preseason games he has played Ferland has not looked out of place on the top line. We can't expect anything more than that at this point. I think by game #15-20 whether he has "grown into that spot."

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by dino7c

The "argument" if you want to call it that is that Ferland isn't a top line RWer on a cup contender. I don't think he is, I am willing to bet that most around the league don't. Would be ecstatic if he scored 25-30 goals this season and proved me wrong but we shall see.

My guess is that the Flames will be looking for someone to fill that role all year long

This isn't Team Canada.

I think you're getting too hung up on finding an elite equivalent to play with Gaudreau and Monahan when the truth is most team's aren't built that way in a salary cap world.

Hell even in the past teams weren't built that way. Colin Patterson was the long time winger for Mullen and Gilmour, Bossy and Trottier had a great Ferland equivalent in Clark Gillies who was big and could chip in but wasn't a true star player.

You get two guys on each of the top three lines, and then find a guy that can play with each pair and go with it.

Milan Lucic had 80 some points in his first 200 games before finding the back of the net with icetime and opportunity.

Ferland could do the same, or he could settle into a third line role. Time will tell.

[BigErnSalute_16]

Originally Posted by dino7c

The "argument" if you want to call it that is that Ferland isn't a top line RWer on a cup contender. I don't think he is, I am willing to bet that most around the league don't. Would be ecstatic if he scored 25-30 goals this season and proved me wrong but we shall see.

My guess is that the Flames will be looking for someone to fill that role all year long

This whole "on a cup contender" thing is ridiculous. Is Connor Sheary the ideal top line winger on a cup contender? Probably not, but yet the Penguins have won two cups with him playing that role.
Every contender is different, some would rather have a balanced depth attack and some like to overload with one or two lines. So the argument that the flames can't be a contender until they find a top line RW makes no sense, especially when we only have basically half a season with Ferland in that spot and we have no idea what he could possibly do in a full season.

[ricardodw]

I find it interesting that people here think that Gaudreau-Monahan-Ferland is set as the top line. They are basing this on the last 30 games where the Flames played very well... Gaudreau and Monahan woke up. Gio - Hamilton were a very good pairing. The first time that playing with Hamilton did not make his partners play drop off significantly. Brodie was back to top form playing with Stone and Engelland.

Over the last 30 games (after the All Star game)

Elliott 17-6-1 .920 sv% 2.24 GA
Talbot 16-9-1 .917 sv% 2.40 GA

Elliott gets run out of town for a bad playoff against the Ducks after he provided as good a goal tending over a significant period since Kipper left town. He gets replaced at 50% larger cap hit for a journeyman who has not put together a stretch like that since he got his 6x5.666 deal.

Why should Ferland get a pass on his role on the top line play in the playoffs when Elliott (who played well in game #1: 2 PPG against and a 3 on 0 break away goal where he makes the first save, 38 saves in all with 3-4 highlights) gets run out of town.

It seems that an upgrade on #1RW was/is a relatively easy proposition and the upgrade on goalie turned out to be very challenging and suspect.

Oh by the By Engelland was a better defenseman last year than his replacement Hamonic. Hamonic being a -21 on a team where Siedenberg was +25, De Haan +15 and Boychuck +11.. Hamonic has a much better history but the Flames in the case of Elliott it seem to come down to what have you done for us in our last 3 games.

[Finger Cookin]

Originally Posted by BigErnSalute_16

This whole "on a cup contender" thing is ridiculous.

It's the "Flames lack a true #1C" of 2017.