Arena negotiation discussion. UPD: Flames release their proposal

[Locke]

Originally Posted by pylon

After the interview King did on the radio this morning, I am actually convinced the team is as good as gone. Once you hit a point in a negotiation where you publicly declare "We're done, it's over, nothing will salvage it, on to current business." There really is no salvaging it. If the City buckles to the Flames demand there will be outrage from those against the arena. If the Flames buckle to the City, Ken King and Co. look like buffoons. Nobody looks good in this anymore.

Unfortunately I believe Edwards just wants to cash out of Calgary altogether. And I believe there are numerous reasons for this, not just tax implications. There may be a personal element why he wants to be nowhere near Canada right now. And I kinda understand them if the rumours are true.

Everyone on every side of this are idiots. As much as I agree with some of Nenshi's arguments, he is going to be the reason, and his little purple legacy will be replaced as the guy who lost the Flames. If he hadn't been such a dismissive egotistical asshat at the beginning of this, when NEXT was proposed, they may have had a chance. Yes NEXT was silly, but the way Nenshi demeaned and basically mocked in in public started things out so sour, nothing was ever gonna happen. But hey, at least Nenshi got some headlines and made himself the center of attention, at the cost of a NHL franchise.

I guess my only question is: To what end?

I cant think of a single market where they could move the team from here and make more money.

So it would by definition have to be an ideological move, and that the League and Board of Governors likely would never approve of that.

I just dont see leaving Calgary as being viable.

[Tron_fdc]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

All true. But every league, and almost every single club in every league have had their arenas and stadiums subsidized by their city or county.

Is Calgary going to be the only municipality that stands up to the 31 NHL owners and says no?

The province of Quebec built an NHL ready arena completely paid for by the taxpayer. The fact that those taxpayers are in Alberta is another story.

I think what we are all missing here is the pressure from the league. If the Flames go ahead and pay 100% of the cost, every other municipality in the league is going to point to Calgary and say "if they can do it, so can you" when a team needs a new arena.

[rohara66]

Originally Posted by pylon

Everyone on every side of this are idiots. As much as I agree with some of Nenshi's arguments, he is going to be the reason, and his little purple legacy will be replaced as the guy who lost the Flames. If he hadn't been such a dismissive egotistical asshat at the beginning of this, when NEXT was proposed, they may have had a chance. Yes NEXT was silly, but the way Nenshi demeaned and basically mocked in in public started things out so sour, nothing was ever gonna happen. But hey, at least Nenshi got some headlines and made himself the center of attention, at the cost of a NHL franchise.

Agree with this 100%

They're both/all idiots. Nenshi's behavior out of the gates set the tone for this whole process, Flames got their backs up, starting spewing half truths, and now here we are.

[nik-]

many sides ... many sides

Flames are trying to gouge us on both ends, but Nenshi was sassy. I can't decide which way to lean on this.

[TheKurgan]

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

Would CSEC really want to go that route though where they would have to enter into a lease where the terms would be highly beneficial to the City? If the City gets funding from the governments and builds the rink they will have the upper hand.

Who else is the City going to lease the arena to? Flames/Hitman/Roughnecks have to be a pretty big percentage of what happens in the SaddleDome now. I still think CSEC would be able to get a reasonable deal and keep their half billion dollars. Of course this is assuming the City wants to make a Winter Olympic bid.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by rohara66

Agree with this 100%

They're both/all idiots. Nenshi's behavior out of the gates set the tone for this whole process, Flames got their backs up, starting spewing half truths, and now here we are.

Out of the gates? Nenshi wasn't even the mayor when the flames first started talking about a new arena.

It's his fault how the flames are behaving? Come on now. The flames are the ones not willing to negotiate in this, they've walked away from the table. They're the ones taking a hardline approach because they think the city is going to be pressured into getting a deal done if people think the flames are moving, the only problem is it's not going to work the same way it did for Edmonton. Take out the emotional elements involved and see this for what it is: a big game of chicken.

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by TheKurgan

Who else is the City going to lease the arena to? Flames/Hitman/Roughnecks have to be a pretty big percentage of what happens in the SaddleDome now. I still think CSEC would be able to get a reasonable deal and keep their half billion dollars. Of course this is assuming the City wants to make a Winter Olympic bid.

It would have to sit as a stand alone event centre. Olympics, Concerts, curling events, award shows and anything else along those lines.

[cam_wmh]

Ya know, I can't possibly arrive at a number for to City donate, until I see the actual financials of the Calgary Flames.

Not Rogers, Bell, TSN, Financial Post, Sports Illustrated.

Nor Forbes.

The Flames themselves. Operating expenses, for the Saddledome/CSEC as a whole.
I get how guarded and unlikely such an ask is. Just where I'm at.

[EldrickOnIce]

Originally Posted by Table 5

A part of me is almost curious to see the consequences of one of the most stable and relatively prosperous NHL markets moving because neither side feels hockey is financially viable. Would other cities needing new arenas follow? Would it lead to any sort of meaningful change in terms of how the NHL does business? Or would absolutely nothing change?

Agreed.
Also be curious how league owners/BOG approach it.
Seems very obvious this ultimately gets fought out in a CBA, with owners demanding players share of HRR decreasing significantly.

[Olsy]

Does anyone know when the current Saddledome lease expires?

[Locke]

Originally Posted by rohara66

Agree with this 100%

They're both/all idiots. Nenshi's behavior out of the gates set the tone for this whole process, Flames got their backs up, starting spewing half truths, and now here we are.

I disagree with this a lot.

There are a lot of moving pieces gravitating around this. Theres some big egos, but I think what this really revolves around is the changing reality of the existence of major sports teams in Cities.

King and the CSEC want the old Status Quo: "Give us money or we're gone!"

Theres lots of evidence out there that this isnt the best way to go anymore, that means less public cash for private enterprise. Which obviously the private enterprise doesnt like. Fair enough. Most people would take something for nothing.

Its a Paradigm shift.

The fact of the matter is that Sports teams have been operating according a whole different rule-book than most businesses for a long time now and when that Paradigm is no longer valid those that were profiting the most from it are most likely to be the most vehement opponents.

One can criticize Nenshi all they like, and thats valid as well, the guy has been a pretty monumental blowhard.

But that doesnt necessarily make him 'wrong' it just means hes not being nice about being right.

'Free Rides for sports teams' fail just about every logical and fiscal test.

What the City offered was a mortgage with heavily favourable rates and its been resoundingly clear that this simply isnt good enough.

If 'Free' is the only thing thats good enough then that engages an entirely different set of questions.

[Peanut]

Originally Posted by nik-

many sides ... many sides

Flames are trying to gouge us on both ends, but Nenshi was sassy. I can't decide which way to lean on this.

But her emails!!

Oh wait. Wrong thread.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by Locke

I disagree with this a lot.

There are a lot of moving pieces gravitating around this. Theres some big egos, but I think what this really revolves around is the changing reality of the existence of major sports teams in Cities.

King and the CSEC want the old Status Quo: "Give us money or we're gone!"

Theres lots of evidence out there that this isnt the best way to go anymore, that means less public cash for private enterprise. Which obviously the private enterprise doesnt like. Fair enough. Most people would take something for nothing.

Its a Paradigm shift.

The fact of the matter is that Sports teams have been operating according a whole different rule-book than most businesses for a long time now and when that Paradigm is no longer valid those that were profiting the most from it are most likely to be the most vehement opponents.

One can criticize Nenshi all they like, and thats valid as well, the guy has been a pretty monumental blowhard.

But that doesnt necessarily make him 'wrong' it just means hes not being nice about being right.

'Free Rides for sports teams' fail just about every logical and fiscal test.

What the City offered was a mortgage with heavily favourable rates and its been resoundingly clear that this simply isnt good enough.

If 'Free' is the only thing thats good enough then that engages an entirely different set of questions.

Well said. Neither side are idiots, though the flames do appear to be in a bit of denial about the current economic and business landscape.

[Tiger]

Originally Posted by GGG

I think this is a fair break down of the current positions

Flames Offer

Flames 285 cash
City 235 cash. (Note a CRL is not free money as development from elsewhere is reduced)
25 Saddledome demolition
30 million Land
245 million operating subsidy / opportunity cost

Flames 285 City 535 million
private 35% / Public 65%

The city offer
Flames 370 million
City. 185 million

66% private / 33% public

Do nothing assume Saddledome lasts 35 years

City Subsidy to the Flames 6 million per year
210 million 100% public

So basically the Flames are asking the city for an addition 310 million in subsidies over the next 35 years.

One thing the flames are right on is that the current city offer is to effectively continue the current rate that the Flames are subsidized at and are putting up no new money.

So... The city should start charging them property tax now then in the saddledome

[Aleks]

Originally Posted by united

I'm glad the events of the past few weeks have shown everyone throughout the city what a snake Ken King is. Us season ticket holders have been listening to the guy's bull####, and have been treated to his same body language, for a decade, if not more. It is completely shocking he is still around and involved in things.

I've sat in a room and had a discussion with him as a STH once. He's definitely arrogant, condescending and gives off an salesman vibe

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by Peanut

But her emails!!

Oh wait. Wrong thread.

Wait a minute, you might be on to something here. The flames should demand an investigation into whether or not Nenshi has been in contact with the KHL.

[DJones]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

Well said. Neither side are idiots, though the flames do appear to be in a bit of denial about the current economic and business landscape.

If they are willing to walk away I wouldn't say they are in denial. They are just saying this deal works for us, now it's the cities decision to accept the offer or not.

Whether the city can afford to pay that amount doesn't change the owners break even point.

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by Olsy

Does anyone know when the current Saddledome lease expires?

Assuming this (https://law.marquette.edu/assets/spo...ary-flames.pdf) is valid the lease expires in 2033.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by DJones

If they are willing to walk away I wouldn't say they are in denial. They are just saying this deal works for us, now it's the cities decision to accept the offer or not.

Whether the city can afford to pay that amount doesn't change the owners break even point.

This is just it.

The Flames have made the offer that they can make, if the City doesn't like it - then it doesn't happen. End of story. There's no grounds for a deal that makes sense to Flames as an organization, so things will stay as-is for the foreseeable future.

Where this gets interesting is if the City does decide they need/want an arena, because then it's on them to find investors/corporate interest...if that day never comes, then there's a natural course of events that will take place one day in the future (no time soon).

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by DJones

As poorly as the Flames have handled this, they are right. It's simply not economical to fund an arena privately in Calgary.

I just can't see them offering any more.

People need to stop saying this. There is no evidence of this at all.