Arena negotiation discussion. UPD: Flames release their proposal

[Locke]

Originally Posted by edslunch

I couldn’t read through all the posts this morning. Is there one that explains how the Flames end up paying 120%?

The City's Debit Machine has a really tricky 'Tip' function.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by edslunch

I couldn’t read through all the posts this morning. Is there one that explains how the Flames end up paying 120%?

Prix fixe menu only $33!
Direct costs: Ingredients $33

(Indirect costs: Labor $40, Misc Overhead $25, Reservation fee $25, Drinks TBD, Tip 20%)

[firebug]

Originally Posted by EldrickOnIce

Essentially the Flames stance is the same as anyone, including the work Bingo just did, that it is not feasible to privately build a new arena.

So that's it. Without a successful Olympic bid, there won't be a new arena, and the Flames will continue to operate out of the Saddledome until such time as it is no longer feasible to do so.

I don't see what the problem is with any of the above.

I think that is the issue and it is one that the League Owners and NHLPA need to figure out.

If the only way your business model is successful is to rely on holding civic taxpayers hostage for money - it needs to be fixed.

Effectively they are admitting that there are not enough people who care about their sport to pay all their bills - so lets force the people who don't care to pay for it too.

[Backlunds_socks]

Originally Posted by DJones

As poorly as the Flames have handled this, they are right. It's simply not economical to fund an arena privately in Calgary.

I just can't see them offering any more.

Originally Posted by edslunch

I couldn’t read through all the posts this morning. Is there one that explains how the Flames end up paying 120%?

This one:

They don't.

[Peanut]

Originally Posted by EldrickOnIce

Right. And neither side is prepared to move on this, and I understand that completely, from both sides.
So there is no deal and things go on, as usual.

So why the wailing and gnashing of teeth?
The Flames should be compelled to put themselves in a financial position they don't want?
The city should put taxpayers on the hook this?

Of course not, in either case. So that's it, and I think it's best for all involved.

Right, but that's not how the Flames presented it. They came out with King and Bettman essentially threatening the City and Flames fans with a relocation. They suggested we all vote for different councillors/mayor if we didn't like "how things were progressing".

If the economics and risks don't justify a new arena from either side, why did the Flames come out swinging and initiate this PR gongshow?

[calgaryblood]

Originally Posted by DJones

As poorly as the Flames have handled this, they are right. It's simply not economical to fund an arena privately in Calgary.

I just can't see them offering any more.

Well they're not going to be funding it by themselves and I don't see why they're any different than any other professional sports team who pays for part of or their own arena fully. The Flames make money and have been for a while.

[Peanut]

The other thing I don't completely understand is the Olympics bid angle. It makes some sense for both the Flames and the City to use the Olympics bid to obtain additional provincial and federal funding for a new arena. Ok. But if that's the case, why are they turning this into an election issue? They could just wait quietly and continue negotiating with the City, while both sides acknowledge the Olympic bid will come into play and could actually help out both sides.

But again with kicking off the PR poo-storm and seemingly trying to use this issue to force Nenshi out. That really has nothing to do with a future Olympics bid.

I just don't understand the Flames perspective on this at all.

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Kudos to the CSEC for doing their best to elide who pays the CRL.

[topfiverecords]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

In fairness, most of the sports/entertainment districts that really work well have the restaurants and bars literally outside the door of the arena/stadium. You go through the district even to get to your car in a lot of them. Look at Phoenix or Glendale. The Saddledome is behind the Stampede walls. Sure there's a couple places five blocks away, and anyone should be able to walk it, but it's not the same.

A vibrant commercial area immediately outside an arena would be great. I have to question though how that comes to fruition without the arena developer building it with the arena on day 1.

Take a weeknight Flames game at 7:00pm for example. If you're looking to open an establishment, do you want to be in a location where the majority of your patrons leave at 6:50pm and go spend the remainder of their entertainment budget at the arena, mostly on beer. Then hoping you get a significant amount of people to come back in at 10:00pm for you to remain open.

For "prior to the game" opportunity, a percentage of ticket holders come straight to the game from home and have no interest in these establishments. A percentage that go out prior, go to one of the many places that already fall in their transportation path between their location and the arena. Most likely somewhere they are familiar with closer to their home/work.

For "after the game" opportunity, a large percentage of ticket holders will have exhausted their "night out" at 10pm by the end of dinner and a game. Plenty have a lengthy drive or transit trip and during the week are focused on going home.

As ticket prices increase 40%, the demographic of your patrons shifts to almost completely an older white collar, 8-5, more financially well off crowd, and less of a younger audience with interest in going to the bar after the game.

[djsFlames]

Anybody have $600M laying around?

Bring in a Calgary B team, call it the Scorch, and build an "FU Ken King Arena" up the road from the Dome. Corner the market and watch CSEC eat their words.

[Rubicant]

Wow. The Flames point of view on the CRL has been thoroughly debunked.

[topfiverecords]

Originally Posted by djsFlames

Anybody have $600M laying around?

Bring in a Calgary B team, call it the Scorch, and build an "FU Ken King Arena" up the road from the Dome. Corner the market and watch CSEC eat their words.

Can we shape it as a big middle finger taller than the Calgary Tower pointing towards Edmonton? We could then get revenue from the observation deck in the fingernail.

[zuluking]

Originally Posted by Rubicant

Wow. The Flames point of view on the CRL has been thoroughly debunked.

I would say it has been thoroughly Bunk'ed.

[ResAlien]

Originally Posted by Peanut

But again with kicking off the PR poo-storm and seemingly trying to use this issue to force Nenshi out. That really has nothing to do with a future Olympics bid.

I just don't understand the Flames perspective on this at all.

I'm almost convinced that the Flames are intentionally botching the PR side of this in order to tick the fanbase off so much that we're glad when they say they're leaving. Almost.

On the other hand it could be they're utterly tonedeaf and incompetent. That may be an option too.

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by Rubicant

Wow. The Flames point of view on the CRL has been thoroughly debunked.

Yes. And how bad this deal would be for the city with a CRL - the CalgaryNEXT CRL proposal would have been 10x worse.

[Frequitude]

I hope Ken King is paid well. He's gone from a god amongst the fan base revered for his handshake to a laughing stock ridiculed for his bumbling approach to all of this and his belief that we are too stupid to see through his mistruths.

[KelVarnsen]

Originally Posted by ResAlien

I'm almost convinced that the Flames are intentionally botching the PR side of this in order to tick the fanbase off so much that we're glad when they say they're leaving. Almost.

On the other hand it could be they're utterly tonedeaf and incompetent. That may be an option too.

[EldrickOnIce]

Originally Posted by Peanut

Right, but that's not how the Flames presented it. They came out with King and Bettman essentially threatening the City and Flames fans with a relocation. They suggested we all vote for different councillors/mayor if we didn't like "how things were progressing".

If the economics and risks don't justify a new arena from either side, why did the Flames come out swinging and initiate this PR gongshow?

That's not my understanding, but obviously open to interpretation. Which doesn't mean they didn't bungle it, like they have most things. And that is right - if the will of the majority is something different than current council brings, one should vote accordingly. It's obvious that the public is overwhelmingly on side with current council on this, so vote accordingly there too.
But I don't understand where they threaten anything. They said they are closing negotiations, and repeated that today. That they will not spend that amount money for an arena. That they will continue to operate out if the Saddledome as long as it is feasible.

Of course if no new arena is built the Flames will eventually leave. This isn't a threat, it is common sense.

Interpretation is subjective. When KK says we won't threaten to move, we will just go if they can't get the arena deal they want... I see that as simply stating an obvious eventuality.

So it's over, unless an Olympic bid somehow saves it. And I'm really happy it's done.

[EldrickOnIce]

Originally Posted by firebug

I think that is the issue and it is one that the League Owners and NHLPA need to figure out.

If the only way your business model is successful is to rely on holding civic taxpayers hostage for money - it needs to be fixed.

Effectively they are admitting that there are not enough people who care about their sport to pay all their bills - so lets force the people who don't care to pay for it too.

Agree 100%
The cycle has to stop someplace, by somebody putting their foot down. Maybe this is the place

[Rubicant]

Originally Posted by zuluking

I would say it has been thoroughly Bunk'ed.

I didn't want to be that on the nose