[GT] Flames Oilers split squad. Oilers @ Flames

[MyFlamesFirst]

Was at the game. Thought Jankowski, Mangiapane, and Dube all stood out in a positive way. Was hoping that Smith would have been better. My biggest take away however is that beer is now 9.75 for a pint. That's ludicrous.

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[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by djsFlames

A goaltender has to start in the NHL somewhere.

NHL starters don't just come in from starting in the A to starting with the parent club like one day they're suddenly ready and skip over the being a backup to prove they belong part

Actually that's exactly what a lot of them do. GM's will tell you that young goalies need to see pucks to improve. Generally teams cook goalies in the minors until they're ready to be starters. There is often no "being a backup to prove they belong part" for the highly touted young goalies.

[camm13]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

Exactly I think Brouwer should have a short leash this year because really this was preseason game 87 for him including last year. I can't fathom any of our prospects having nearly the amount of rope this guy gets, it's so blatantly contract driven and I just wish sometimes the people in charge of managing these things swallowed their pride.

If Wade Redden can be sent to the minors so can Troy Brouwer or Matt Stajan if they're getting outplayed, and Brouwers been outplayed for about a calendar year now by younger, hungrier players.

Agreed, he also doesn't deserve to wear the A for the team. He should have never gotten it last year without dressing a single game for us. He may be a voice in the locker room but I don't see him leading on the ice, and certainly doesn't make those on his lines better with him on the ice.

[djsFlames]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Actually that's exactly what a lot of them do. GM's will tell you that young goalies need to see pucks to improve. Generally teams cook goalies in the minors until they're ready to be starters. There is often no "being a backup to prove they belong part" for the highly touted young goalies.

I guess Price fast tracked the backup role and went straight to tandem for a couple years to break in but..

Talbot..was a backup first in NY
Murray..even spent time backing up MAF
Holtby..spent time backing up Neuvirth and Varlamov first
Dubnyk..backed up Khabibulin for a year or two, split in Arizona before Minny
Bishop and Elliott both backed up in Ottawa prior to Tampa and St Loo

Could go on but rather go to bed. Don't know what universe you live in though claiming that its typical for starters to jump straight into that role.

[combustiblefuel]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Actually that's exactly what a lot of them do. GM's will tell you that young goalies need to see pucks to improve. Generally teams cook goalies in the minors until they're ready to be starters. There is often no "being a backup to prove they belong part" for the highly touted young goalies.

This is so not true. Name 5 goalies who just became starters in the NHL in the last 40 years with out backing up first.

The only goalie off the top of my head in a rookie season was Henrik Lundqvist but he was 24 entering the league after 4 years in mens leagues over in Europe.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by djsFlames

I guess Price fast tracked the backup role and went straight to tandem for a couple years to break in but..

Talbot..was a backup first in NY
Murray..even spent time backing up MAF
Holtby..spent time backing up Neuvirth and Varlamov first
Dubnyk..backed up Khabibulin for a year or two, split in Arizona before Minny
Bishop and Elliott both backed up in Ottawa prior to Tampa and St Loo

Could go on but rather go to bed. Don't know what universe you live in though claiming that its typical for starters to jump straight into that role.

Originally Posted by combustiblefuel

This is so not true. Name 5 goalies who just became starters in the NHL in the last 40 years with out backing up first.

Talbot was not a highly regarded young goalie. More of a backup that developed into a starter later in his career. We're talking about a 23 year old Jon Gillies and whether he should be in the AHL or NHL at his age. Talbot didn't see any NHL time til age 26/27. They aren't comparable in the slightest. There's no point comparing Talbot's career path with Gillies as nothing about them is similar. Talbot wasn't even drafted.

Dubnyk played his first 3 pro season entirely in the minors. Jon Gillies has 1 year of pro under his belt. Dubnyk was arguably almost ruined by playing in front of the horrid Oiler's defense and losing all confidence in himself. The Oilers tried to fast track him into a starter/tandem and it failed. Some goalies take longer than others. Dubnyk needed 3 years in the minors before he played in the NHL and arguably should've had more. Gillies only has 1 and that was in a tandem. Of course Dubnyk came from juniors and Gillies played in college. If anything the Dubnyk case argues for leaving the kid in the minors longer.

Murray is an interesting case. Probably would've been fast tracked as PIT's starter if they didn't have such a highly paid and highly popular guy sitting in front of him. I think many organizations would've had him in the AHL and then straight into starter status. But yes, you are right in that he did spend some time backing up in the NHL. I still don't see that as the ideal for goalie development and Treliving's interviews say much the same.

Murray and Gibson have some similarity. Personally I don't think Gibson backing up in ANA helped his development much, I would have rather seen him play more in the AHL and then be handed the reins. I still think that's a lot more ideal. Instead of ANA having Gibson work out his kinks and develop in the AHL they've basically had him develop on the job while in a tandem or as a starter. Lots of extra pressure on that kid but he is one of the most highly regarded young goalies in a while. It looks like he'll be fine in the long run but I'm not sure the way they handled and developed him is the ideal.

Highly regarded young goalies that moved straight into starter status without spending much if any time backing up at all?

Ryan Miller
Roberto Luongo
Jonathan Quick
Carey Price
Patrick Roy

to name a few off the top of my head.

Anyways I probably shouldn't have generalized as each goalie is a unique case. Clearly some have backed up, some came up into tandems. But saying young goalies need to backup first makes absolutely no sense to me and it flies in the face of what our GM has said over and over again.

Sure at some point before he's a starter Gillies may spend a bit of time backing up. But now is not that time. Jon Gillies has 1 season of pro under his belt where he played in a tandem with David Rittich. Because he missed almost a complete year due to injury there are good arguments as to why this kid needs to play. Sitting on the bench isn't teaching a goalie anything and there's only so much you learn with a goalie coach. Our GM keeps saying things along these lines. Young goalies have to see pucks in game situations. How many times has Treliving talked about this in regards to Gillies? Over and over again.

What the heck is Jon Gillies gonna learn sitting on the bench in the NHL? It puts the kid in an awkward situation if the coach loses any faith in him and then has to start riding our relatively old starter. That isn't a good situation for Smith, Gulutzan or Gillies.

Clearly its ideal for Gillies to be playing games in the minors this year, getting in a groove, learning how to dominate pro. If any goalie was to replace Lack this year then Rittich makes a lot more sense because he's already played more pro than Gillies and didn't lose a year to injury. Treliving has said that people outside the organization thought Rittich was one of the best goalies in the AHL last year. And Treliving has talked about Rittich having more pro experience and thus hinting that he's more NHL ready than Gillies.

Our GM doesn't want Gillies backing up, they want him playing games. Basically Treliving has refuted your earlier argument in numerous interviews over the past few months.

[combustiblefuel]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Ryan Miller
Roberto Luongo
Jonathan Quick
Carey Price
Patrick Roy

Lets break down your list here.

Ryan miller spent 4 seasons between the Ahl and Nhl.
He only played 18 games i. The nhl his first 3 years.

He was 25 when he established himself in the nhl.

Roberto Luongo : I'll give you that one as he did excell.
But only because for his first few years the panthers had no other options.
Quick. Did spend time in echl and Ahl but still did manage to break into the league at 22.

Price . same Luongo and Quick

Patrick roy: ya I guess in a different eara but. Still correct.



You still owe me one more you got 4 out of 5.

Yet even tho you listed these goalies 90 % of goalies don't just make the jump.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by camm13

Agreed, he also doesn't deserve to wear the A for the team. He should have never gotten it last year without dressing a single game for us. He may be a voice in the locker room but I don't see him leading on the ice, and certainly doesn't make those on his lines better with him on the ice.

A bunch of you guys pontificate about what players or coaches should be doing or thinking, but unless you are in the room or close to the team it is all pretty vacuous.

Again, regardless of your own personal expectations for Troy Brouwer, he is a ten year NHL veteran who is going to play his preseason out the way that he and the coaching staff have planned. Your observations or hurt feelings are not going to change that.

[Machiavelli]

Sometimes fans do get it right, Text

[Leeman4Gilmour]

Originally Posted by MyFlamesFirst

Was at the game. Thought Jankowski, Mangiapane, and Dube all stood out in a positive way. Was hoping that Smith would have been better. My biggest take away however is that beer is now 9.75 for a pint. That's ludicrous.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

Ugh, what a silly price. That just screws the staff. If it was 9.00, most would likely still drop $10. But, now, the staff get a $0.25 tip instead of a $1.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Machiavelli

Sometimes fans do get it right, Text

About hockey? Absolutely. About the anecdotal stuff that occurs on the ice or what is taking place behind closed doors in dressing rooms and coaches offices? No, I expect that fans are very rarely ever right about these sorts of things.

[rain_e]

Originally Posted by Leeman4Gilmour

Ugh, what a silly price. That just screws the staff. If it was 9.00, most would likely still drop $10. But, now, the staff get a $0.25 tip instead of a $1.

That's Ken Kings money. Not the staffs money.

[Strange Brew]

Commenting that Brouwer played poorly and will have a bad year is in some ways just the flip side of commenting that Jankowski played great and will have a good year in the NHL.

It's the preseason and its very hard to discern much of anything because no doubt veterans are not giving it their all. Personally I don't mind people letting their feelings be known about the players.

[calgaryblood]

It would be understandable if Brouwer wasn't coming off a season where he looked like crap and was dogging it most of the season.

I'd definitely be giving him the benefit of the doubt if that wasn't the case and it doesn't take his coach or being in the room to know he has to be better. All it takes is watching a shift. He looks disinterested and lazy.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by calgaryblood

It would be understandable if Brouwer wasn't coming off a season where he looked like crap and was dogging it most of the season.

I'd definitely be giving him the benefit of the doubt if that wasn't the case and it doesn't take his coach or being in the room to know he has to be better. All it takes is watching a shift. He looks disinterested and lazy.

I get that, but I don't believe what you are hoping for here is a reasonable expectation. I say that because pre-season hockey is so different from what happens in the regular season, and for a veteran player like Brouwer he is not focused on making an impression in the preseason—not to his teammates, the coaches, and certainly not the fans.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by calgaryblood

It would be understandable if Brouwer wasn't coming off a season where he looked like crap and was dogging it most of the season.

I'd definitely be giving him the benefit of the doubt if that wasn't the case and it doesn't take his coach or being in the room to know he has to be better. All it takes is watching a shift. He looks disinterested and lazy.

The guy is getting $4.5 million/season for three more years. He's not going anywhere so maybe we should at least wait until the regular season to start beating this horse. He's the new Wideman and as we saw with that contract that you simply have to accept he's not going anywhere and move on as no team will trade for that contract and maybe, just maybe the team is in a position to buy him out of the last year of the deal. In the mean time we have to simply hope he has a better season as last season was a career low and most players play better in their second season with a new team so things do point to him being better (by how much is anyone's guess). Nobody is going to remember how he performed in the preseason as it simply doesn't count as anything other than practice.

[calgarywinning]

Brouwer was one of the worst players on the ice last night. Pre-season or no pre-season.

Also, the deja-vu of terrible goaltending was a ghost for me. Two bad goals, pre-season or no pre-season.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by calgarywinning

Also, the deja-vu of terrible goaltending was a ghost for me. Two bad goals, pre-season or no pre-season.

Prove it.

[Bingo]

To each their own but I honestly thought today would be about Dube, Jankowski, Mangiapane, Kylington and Valimaki from the Saddledome game.

And those that saw the Edmonton game would be discussing changes in Bennett, Poirier's step, and how Kulak has looked with Stone thus far.

Didn't see "I guess our goaltending is going to suck this year" and "see told you Brouwer sucks!" as the two basic topics beside "how boring the NHL is now".

[GoJetsGo]

It's the same usual suspects whose priorities have always seemed to be to focus on the negative. It's surprising, but typical that minority is always the most vocal and unrelenting.