Arena negotiation discussion. UPD: Flames release their proposal

[Senator Clay Davis]

Originally Posted by DiracSpike

I'm sure that perception has nothing to do with the fact that you guys are in violent agreement in the Trump thread and you disagree here

I actually generally find him to be annoying there too interestingly enough. The content of his takes in that thread is better though.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Bingo

what was ugly about what I said?

This was my rather innocuous statement



Hell I've read many comments about questioning their intent to remain fans in all this. So yeah I think the majority is heavily in the city's court on this debate. I've ready many anti ownership comments in the past few days and very few anti Nenshi.

As I've said for two years I think they both have been a mess.

I was responding to Lamny

[flambers]

Originally Posted by calgaryblood

You really believe they saw this coming?

I can't understand why King would see this coming and still continue to make the Flames and himself look like fools.

I can understand them trying to tweak the deal a little bit but this offer is more than fair and they come out looking really bad when they walk away.

Absolutely the Flames owners would have predicted this move by the City.

City has no other play.... they can only disclose the negotiations.

Remember the Oilers also walked away from the Arena deal....

[Philly06Cup]

I strongly oppose the phrasing of the "1/3 user ticket tax". That money is coming from the Flames, especially if the city want the flames to front the money. It doesn't matter if the flames use their own pocket money or future revenue money to cover that third: the flames are paying that third. The only reason to break out that third is if and only if the city is offering a loan of that third. Then the value of that loan would be the interest saved on that ~185MM.

Stop talking about the middle third. It doesn't exist.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by nik-

I think part of the problem is you've convinced yourself that you're totally a moderate, right in the middle guy on this issue. You seem to think because that you throw in a "both sides" in a post, this means you're totally unbiased.
A lot of people have pointed out to you the fallacy of this, using the things you've posted, yet you continue to think this way.

It slants your entire perspective on this issue and as a result the posters who are arguing both stances. It's actually kind of disappointing.

Yes, the site has a lean in this debate, and guess what, off this site it's the same thing. You don't think that consistency around this issue shows something?

To be honest I tend to move off center when the weighting gets out of much on any topic, always have.

When a real strong majority forms on one side of an issue with two sides I tend to take up the minority to some degree, for that I stand guilty.

But other than that I don't agree with you. I can't stand Nenshi, haven't for months. Started with the Uber thing and has progressed downhill ever since. I don't like King either, I think he was the worst choice to put as the face of this for an ownership group in Calgary.

I don't think the city should build an arena for the team, but I also think given many comparables the team is right to get some assistance. I don't really have a stance on where the middle ground leans.

So call me what you want, your disappointment is sort of baffling as I didn't know I had to meet people's requirements in this, but fill your boots.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by mikephoen

If they flames were smart, they would take at least a day to craft their response and make sure they don't come off as arrogant schmucks for the second time in a week...

Obviously they schedule their press conference for a couple hours later. KK will probably just march around the stage with a "Bill Smith for mayor" placard.

They had todays response crafted before they dropped the bomb on Tuesday.

There is nothing that was said today that they didnt already know was coming.

The city proposal was one they have already seen and dismissed long ago.

[greyshep]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I think its best to see what the Flames and King say at this press conference.

Until we can see and compare the two positions we don't know what the Flames position really is.

I think we all need to be patient and see what happens at 11:30.

If its like most Flames press conferences, we are likely going to have to be very patient. Any over-unders on actual start time?

I am going with 12:15.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Bingo

You guys don't think they saw all this coming?

Back away from negotiations in a splashy way by walking the commissioner out (their biggest mistake in my mind) and then what?

They expected Flames fans to rise up on opposition to Nenshi and City Hall, and damage Nenshi in the upcoming election.

It's pretty evident that's not going to happen. Even here, the most hardcore element of the fan community, fans are charitably (to CSEC) split 50/50 on the issue. In fact, my sense is CSEC's tactic has soured a lot of fans on them. Turns out we aren't as irrational as King and company hoped. My sense is public support for the Flames, never particularly strong, is actually weakening.

Originally Posted by Locke

See, this is something I've been saying for a while now. We've got the head of the CSEC dealing with the head of the City, maybe we need different people sitting in the seats talking this over.

I doubt it would make any difference. King takes his marching orders from Edwards, who's the one really in charge here. Anyone else will get the same marching orders. As for Nenshi, he may be a self-aggrandizing blowhard, but the deal he's offering is perfectly defensible from the perspective of the City and taxpayers.

The crux of the problem is that Murray Edwards wants and expects a deal a lot closer to what Edmonton got. The City, and Calgarians, aren't willing to cut that kind of deal. Changing the public faces of the negotiations won't change those stark realities.

[calgaryblood]

Originally Posted by transplant99

They had todays response crafted before they dropped the bomb on Tuesday.

There is nothing that was said today that they didnt already know was coming.

The city proposal was one they have already seen and dismissed long ago.

Source??

[Toonage]

Watch them screw up, read an old statement and fire Hartley again.

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by Par

What I am saying is that the City will get there money back through property taxes and the Flames will take all the risks of trying to fill the arena for events(what happens if there not enough events, other than the Flames home games, there are no guarantees for the Flames.)

But the City is entitled to those property taxes regardless of whether or not it contributes money to the arena.

[flambers]

Originally Posted by transplant99

They had todays response crafted before they dropped the bomb on Tuesday.

There is nothing that was said today that they didnt already know was coming.

The city proposal was one they have already seen and dismissed long ago.

Agreed, an negotiation is like playing chess.

You have to think 4, 5 or 6 moves ahead.

[edslunch]

This press conference will be very interesting. I can't imagine them climbing down and negotiating (in public) this quickly so I expect them just to dismiss the city's proposal and reiterate that they are done.

[mikephoen]

Originally Posted by transplant99

They had todays response crafted before they dropped the bomb on Tuesday.

There is nothing that was said today that they didnt already know was coming.

The city proposal was one they have already seen and dismissed long ago.

You're giving them far more credit than I am. But maybe you're right and KK has had MS Paint fired up since Tuesday and he's ready to wow us again like he did at the calgaryNEXT announcement.

[browna]

So from the City’s PowerPoint chart, a couple questions since it’s a pretty basic chart.

Who actually owns the building? Flames have “control” but who owns it?

From that, who is responsible for maintenance and required upgrades in 10,15,20 years?

Parking and concessions...all Flames are does the Stampede board get involved here?
It’s not clear, but the arrangement still is from this, that the $130m the city is putting up gets repaid in full? So they are acting as an interest free bank for that amount?

[northcrunk]

Originally Posted by edslunch

This press conference will be very interesting. I can't imagine them climbing down and negotiating (in public) this quickly so I expect them just to dismiss the city's proposal and reiterate that they are done.

I don't think they are done. But they are done dealing with Nenshi.

[nomad]

Originally Posted by edslunch

This press conference will be very interesting. I can't imagine them climbing down and negotiating (in public) this quickly so I expect them just to dismiss the city's proposal and reiterate that they are done.

yep

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

They expected Flames fans to rise up on opposition to Nenshi and City Hall, and damage Nenshi in the upcoming election.

It's pretty evident that's not going to happen. Even here, the most hardcore element of the fan community, fans are charitably (to CSEC) split 50/50 on the issue. In fact, my sense is CSEC's tactic has actually soured a lot of fans on them. Turns out we aren't as irrational as King and company hoped. My sense is public support for the Flames, never particularly strong, is actually weakening.

I'd be guessing, just as you are, but I don't agree.

Nenshi has pretty solid numbers, assuming you can turn one of these vanilla opponents into an upset in 6 weeks would be pretty naive.

I think they wanted the whole thing public to get it moving. Done

[Par]

Originally Posted by Makarov

But the City is entitled to those property taxes regardless of whether or not it contributes money to the arena.

The Flames also provide jobs, bring tourists to the city, companies that do that, get tax breaks, look at the Winnipeg Jets.

[calgaryblood]

There is going to be a lot of "can't discuss that" and stuttering from King in this press conference I'd bet.

Don't see what he can possibly say and not come out looking bad.