Will the real Islam please stand up?

[Calgaryborn]

http://nyjtimes.com/cover/11-07-06/TheAgendaofIslam.htm

Above is an article written be a Israeli Historian who argues
that unlike Judaism and Christianity Islam cannot accept religious
freedom of choice and has been consistent in its war like advancement
since its invention.

Of course it would be easy to dismiss the article as Israeli propaganda
but, he certainly isn't the only voice saying this. If he is right about the
situation the only two options for non-Islamic nations is to: 1. Outlaw and destroy this religion 2. Contain this religion and not give it the tools it needs to expand.

Of the two choices the second one seems the most agreeable to
peace loving people, but of course that's if this article paints a true picture of the situation. I think a lot of the differences on this board concerning Middle eastern policies stems from different perspectives
as to the real causes of the unrest. Is this guy all wet and if you think so then why? O and please lets not turn into a collection of real and perceived sins perpetrated by Israel and the American against Arabs
or Islam. The question I want to raise is what is the underlining motivation of Islam. Knowing that will help determine what is appropriate actions.

[jolinar of malkshor]

I don't think it is as simple to say Islam simply will not tolerate other religions. The moderate Muslims I know are very accepting of other people and other religions. It is the extremists that cannot get a foot hold in the world.

I also think that the Koran in general is more violent than the New testament. The problem with religion is when people start to interpret it literally. People forget that 1400-2000 years have past and we have advanced as a race.

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

I also think that the Koran in general is more violent than the New testament.

That is an understatement. We have no evidence of Jesus or even his disciples having any interest in warfare even in self defence.

[Ayrahb]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

That is an understatement. We have no evidence of Jesus or even his disciples having any interest in warfare even in self defence.

<text removed>

Has anyone ever caught Jack Van Impe Ministries on TV (Shaw channel 37)? I swear to God, if Jews made peace with Arabs (and they will) certain christians would nuke them just to start Armageddon.

You realize of course that calling to destroy a whole group of people puts one in an elite group that includes, among others, certain members of ultra-agressive Muslim sects.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

That is an understatement. We have no evidence of Jesus or even his disciples having any interest in warfare even in self defence.

Better yet we have no evidence of Jesus himself.

[Ayrahb]

I see that people are reading up a lot on these topics so here is something a little different:

http://www.rb.org.il/

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by Cheese

Better yet we have no evidence of Jesus himself.

I think here we are talking about Jesus' teachings, which there is some evidence of, as opposed to Mohammad's teachings.

I don't know much about Mohammad's teachings but I do know he taught for the rich to give to the poor. Similar to Jesus. The difference came when he ran into physical opposition, he and his followers fought back and a tradition was formed. That was 1400 years ago though and one of my main beefs with religion, they don't adapt to the times. I doubt if Mohammad was alive today he would be causing war and I think most Moslems would agree.

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by Ayrahb

<text removed>

Has anyone ever caught Jack Van Impe Ministries on TV (Shaw channel 37)? I swear to God, if Jews made peace with Arabs (and they will) certain christians would nuke them just to start Armageddon.

You realize of course that calling to destroy a whole group of people puts one in an elite group that includes, among others, certain members of ultra-agressive Muslim sects.

I am familiar with Jack Van Impe. Are you saying he is advocating a nuclear war?

Also, if the article I sited is true there will never be peace in the Middle East. There will be one of three things: War, Genocide, or a stand off with the overwhelming power being held by Israel.

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by Ayrahb

I see that people are reading up a lot on these topics so here is something a little different:

http://www.rb.org.il/

Of course I'm not familiar enough with the Koran to comment on everything he says in his thesis but, I'm am familiar with Genesis and his portrayal of sending Ismael out is incorrect. Yes God was going to make nations of Ismael's seed but, His intent wasn't to have two parallel lines blessed by the promises given unto Abraham. The promised blessing was Issac alone. I think the author was trying to twist scriptures to find common ground between the two groups. I can imagine he did the same with the Koran. I doubt if any but the most moderates in either group would accept his interpretation of their holy books.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

I am familiar with Jack Van Impe. Are you saying he is advocating a nuclear war?

Can I take this one?
"Advocating" , maybe not, but he is sure looking forward to Armageddon. How does that go "you are either with us or against us" and he is on the side destruction. People like Van Impe want to lead us into a self fulfilling prophesy. Scary stuff.

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by Cheese

Better yet we have no evidence of Jesus himself.

We've been through this before Cheese. Every witness to Jesus in history you reject because they believe in Christ. You only believe those who deny Christ's existance. Therefore for you and those of your faith Jesus never existed.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

Yes God was going to make nations of Ismael's seed but, His intent wasn't to have two parallel lines blessed by the promises given unto Abraham. The promised blessing was Issac alone. I think the author was trying to twist scriptures to find common ground between the two groups. I can imagine he did the same with the Koran. I doubt if any but the most moderates in either group would accept his interpretation of their holy books.

Can't you see it's crap like this that divides the world. Issac or Ismael, how do they effect any of us right now. We're all the same and each has a right to god's blessing.

[feartheflames]

Being a muslim, I must say Islam is very very misunderstood, sadly mostly by muslims themselves. I have gone to islamic schools for 7 years and I was taught that all other religions must be respected, especially jews and christians, as we all have such simmilar beliefs, adam and eve,Jesus ( yes we belive in him) Jonag, gabriel, etc. My teacher even referred to all 3 religions as cousins. I was taught that Islam is caring, forgiving and understanding. it is tough being a muslim in this day and age as you are categorized and hated without even having a chance.one thing to also remember these Islamic countires that are expressing these views are 3rd world countries that are led by militants who spread propoganda to citizens that aren't educated to know any better and these countries now have western military invading their homes ( there are now over 60.000 thousand deaths and countless "prisoners of war"), the laws in these countries although based on Islam has taken things out of text mad misconstrued them into something that is oppressive and stifling ( which Islam is not meant to be)... also if you look back in history there has been horrible, horrible crimes created in the name of Christianity- crimes which we all know Christinaity doesn't condone, same thing here... if you were to read more you would see the simmilarities between Chrsitianity are striking ( I happen to believe in both religions and respect them both very much)> I agree with the comment earlier in regards to religion not changing with time, That is an issue and alot of problems stem from that- I'm not trying to get anyone mad, I'm just tryng to get people to be a bit more understanding and categorize less....

[feartheflames]

also please note, Islam is the second largest religion in the world.... if we were all crazy terrorists, dont you think things would be different

[LGA]

Every reiligion has its extremists or those that are heavily against them. It's not fair to single out just one group and say "See, they only like war" when a lot of them, and I know quite a few of them, are quite excepting. It's a small group of extremists, why call them all war loving tyrants?

Sounds lie propaganda to try to sway us to one side or another.

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

Can I take this one?
"Advocating" , maybe not, but he is sure looking forward to Armageddon. How does that go "you are either with us or against us" and he is on the side destruction. People like Van Impe want to lead us into a self fulfilling prophesy. Scary stuff.

Jack Van Impe has been writing and teaching on the Apocalypse for well over 20 years. I'm not familiar with his current stuff but, in his older writings he never advocated helping prophesy fulfill itself. Since then from what I've heard he's gotten quite ecumenical. That is why I don't read his stuff anymore.

The most orthodox interpretation of biblical eschatology would have a man(anti-Christ) make a peace treaty with Israel and then break it after 3.5 years. He then will attempt to destroy Israel with a confederation of nations. This war will be stopped in the valley of Hinnon(sp) by the returning Jesus Christ. If Jack is still pre-tribe he believes all Christians will be gone before the anti-Christ takes power. Either way there is no way a Christian could speed up these events without being on the wrong side of them.

Christian eschatology starts with the end of the church age at the rapture and then has God fulfilling the rest of his promises to wards Israel and then finally a judgment and new beginning. Revelations has something like 22 chapters but, doesn't mention the church after the fourth chapter.

[longsuffering]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

I don't think it is as simple to say Islam simply will not tolerate other religions. The moderate Muslims I know are very accepting of other people and other religions. It is the extremists that cannot get a foot hold in the world.

I can't believe that I'm saying this, but I agree with JoM.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

Jack Van Impe has been writing and teaching on the Apocalypse for well over 20 years. I'm not familiar with his current stuff but, in his older writings he never advocated helping prophesy fulfill itself. Since then from what I've heard he's gotten quite ecumenical. That is why I don't read his stuff anymore.

The most orthodox interpretation of biblical eschatology would have a man(anti-Christ) make a peace treaty with Israel and then break it after 3.5 years. He then will attempt to destroy Israel with a confederation of nations. This war will be stopped in the valley of Hinnon(sp) by the returning Jesus Christ. If Jack is still pre-tribe he believes all Christians will be gone before the anti-Christ takes power. Either way there is no way a Christian could speed up these events without being on the wrong side of them.

Christian eschatology starts with the end of the church age at the rapture and then has God fulfilling the rest of his promises to wards Israel and then finally a judgment and new beginning. Revelations has something like 22 chapters but, doesn't mention the church after the fourth chapter.

So you believe in this stuff and it runs your life. Must be a poor life when all you got to hope for is a promise in the future. Me, I've got the here and now,where life is happening. Remember "The kingdom of heaven is within you".

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by feartheflames

also if you look back in history there has been horrible, horrible crimes created in the name of Christianity- crimes which we all know Christianity doesn't condone, same thing here... if you were to read more you would see the similarities between Christianity are striking ( I happen to believe in both religions and respect them both very much)> I agree with the comment earlier in regards to religion not changing with time, That is an issue and alot of problems stem from that- I'm not trying to get anyone mad, I'm just tryng to get people to be a bit more understanding and categorize less....

Thank you for responding. If you don't mind i would like to know if you've read your holy book from cover to cover. And if you have would you say that it advocates peace throughout. The reason I ask is because many Christians I run across have never even read their Bible through from cover to cover and are only aware of what some preacher has drawn their attention to. (It is no wonder we have so many sects.) Also, I have read that the early writings of your prophet embraced the notions of peaceful relations but, later in his ministry he took up the sword and advocated warfare as a means of winning the world for Allah.

I do acknowledge that specifically the Roman Catholic church has a very bloody history. What change that within Christianity was the fact that there was no basis for it in scriptures. When the reformation occurred the movement was away from Catholic authority and to wards scriptural authority. The more the different factions moved to wards the bible as their authority the more non-violent they became. This is because the bible didn't advocate violence but, rather Jesus said things like "turn the other cheek" and "whosoever will may come".

[RougeUnderoos]

My magic is better than your magic.