[News] Ken King: Flames' owners no longer pursuing new arena with City of Calgary

[calf]

What CSEC seems to be forgetting is that this city's prosperity (and their owner's wealth!) was built on many billions in joint ventures and partnerships. Both sides invest and take on risk. Both sides share in the rewards. If there is a difference in risk tolerances you find a formula that works for both so that the more risk adverse side gets a bit more downside protection, but doesn't share as much in the upside.

So many projects have been completed successfully this way. Few needed free government money for the economics to work. If an arena was so lucrative, you could find other investors to take part. But they can't, and if giving the city and bit of upside makes the deal uneconomical, then the business model doesn't make sense to begin with, for either side. This is all on CSEC for presenting a bad deal where the upside for the city isn't tangible. Getting your money back isn't a benefit.

[TheKurgan]

Originally Posted by Gaudfather

I agree with what you are saying. There is another aspect to this too.

These are the owners of the Flames - Murray Edwards, Alvin Libin, Allan Markin, Jeffrey McCaig, Clay Riddell and Byron Seaman - all have a tremendous Calgary heritage and contributed greatly to the community here - I just cant see these guys tainting their legacy by being known as moving the Flames out of Calgary for a few bucks!

A lot of those owners are getting pretty old, it won't be too long before Murray Edwards owns the whole thing. Not sure he cares about Calgary more than he cares about money.

[Lord Carnage]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

I keep rehashing posts I've already made, but the only thing that matters is the cost to use the library is an affordable free.99, while the arena, for hockey at the very least, will cost 20% or more to get in (and it is never free to go in for the events people really wanna see). Plus we can't forget the principle which is pretty important. The city will kick in the land swap and the infrastructure upgrades. That is significant, but it's not what the Flames want. They want that, plus probably at least 50% from the city. That's just not acceptable.

I know this is a silly extreme, but if 5 people used it a day, does the fact that it is free make it a good use of public money?

I'm sorry, but the internet today makes libraries much less integral, AND building one in downtown where few people live makes little sense. If they had built a few community libraries in the far reaching districts of Calgary, I'd certainly consider that better money spent... not to mention cheaper land than downtown!

[TheAlpineOracle]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Well I hear you but I truly believe there is more to do in Calgary in January than watching Flames games. But if enough people feel that way then the city should be ponying up I suppose.

Honest question, from an entertainment perspective what else does this city have to offer in January on the level of the NHL? Bars and Restaurants? Maybe, but many would close without the Flames driving their business. 17th Avenue and Stephen Avenue would be ghosts towns without the Flames. Concerts? Practically none existent anymore because of the same issue. Theatre? Usually second rate garbage that comes through here.

Other than the Flames, what really is there to do here that you couldn't do in some City say size of Red Deer or Kelowna? Not everyone is content going for a walk in the mountains every weekend, and even if you were, it's hard to find accommodations and the ones are available are increasingly expensive.

As someone who is considering moving from Calgary, I honestly can't think of anything some of perspective smaller potential destinations don't have back East outside of professional sports and football, and even then I could drive to Boston in 6 hours and get my fix. Not so lucky here in Calgary.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Tron_fdc

So does this mean the Stamps are for sale too?

I assume you believe the Flames are for sale with this comment.

What makes you think that?

[Coach]

Originally Posted by Lord Carnage

It isn't that it's all his project or anything...

Like the article you quoted:
- he will tell the Flames where to put it
- he will then tell the Flames to play for it all
- he then expects to be thanked for doing the above

That isn't what I hope for in something that should be a joint venture. I've said all along that Nenshi is as much a part of the problem as the other side, and I'd just like a solution that works.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The City (not the lord almighty He) is telling the Flames where they would like to put the stadium if they want public financing.

The rest is speculation and only shows your view so completely skewed by a hate for Nenshi that it's not worth bothering anymore.

[Manhattanboy]

Originally Posted by TheKurgan

A lot of those owners are getting pretty old, it won't be too long before Murray Edwards owns the whole thing. Not sure he cares about Calgary more than he cares about money.

I wonder. He's a tough SOB that's for sure. Guess how many home playoff games Katz attended? That's right. None.

My point being sometimes the uber rich are a strange group to figure.

[Roughneck]

Originally Posted by New Era

Oh, and that would be on city owned land, in a deal made with the Stampede board in a land swap. Hard to believe the Flames would walk away from such an amazing deal for them?

You make it seem like the swap applies to the Flames.

The Flames don't own any land. They don't own the land the Saddledome is on, they don't own the land CalgaryNEXT was proposed to be on, they don't own it anywhere.

The land swap is between the City and the Stampede, so the City can let the arena be built on it. CalgaryNEXT was predicated on the city owning the facility because it would also be on city land. If the team wants to buy the land on the arena site they want, then they would have more say on where it gets built.

[Fighting Banana Slug]

It sucks that ownership stooped to posturing at election time, but that is all it is. It may force Nenshi (and all mayoral candidates) to more transparently state their bottom line on an arena deal, but that will be about it. Nenshi wins and CSES will need to reevaluate how it plans to finance a new arena, given the mandate that the mayor will have. It doesn't make sense for the Flames to move, unless another city provides a sweetheart deal. I don't see that deal forthcoming. The Stamps, on the other hand, might well fold if they are not profitable (no idea how their bottom line looks).

[Bourque's Twin]

This is purely a tactic by the Flames as a result of terrible negotiations from both sides.

The Flames aren't going anywhere. It's a waiting game between the Dome collapsing and Nenshi leaving. My money is on the latter. Hopefully he gets voted out this election.

I simply don't think he's capable of negotiating a deal and getting the job done. He's repeatedly hurt business and his arrogance makes him tough to reason with. You have to be extremely arrogant to refuse to apologize at the expense of tax payers over something so stupid (Wenzel fiasco).

If Bill Smith gets elected, both parties can renew negotiations with good faith. If Nenshi wins again, it's going to take at least 4 more years. But overall I can't see the Flames leaving unless the NHL strongly subsidized a move. The economics don't make sense for ownership.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

You got all of that out of being a Jet's fan!?

While a bit hokey at the core what he describes is kinda what sports is supposed to be about. Are we all so jaded now that we are going to question that?

[longsuffering]

Originally Posted by dino7c

you guys are all acting like your girlfriend just dumped you...

"won't miss her anyways"

"I will just date Austin Matthews"

"Girls are a waste of time anyway, I can spend the time doing something wise like studying Viking history"

lol

If that's the case you sound like the desperate guy who showers his 'girlfriend' with presents so she'll stay with him.

"Here baby, take everything, just don't leave!"

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

[TheAlpineOracle]

Nenshi isn't capable of negotiating a deal in my opinion. He needs to be the clear cut winner in everything he does. I think the Flames see this and are hoping to push some fence sitters away from voting from Nenshi.

[Matty81]

Originally Posted by transplant99

I assume you believe the Flames are for sale with this comment.

What makes you think that?

From that globe article i quoted:

"One source described the mood of the current owners as "frustrated" and open to selling their interest in the team"

Sounds like not shopping the flames but open to selling.

[Lord Carnage]

Originally Posted by MattyC

The City (not the lord almighty He) is telling the Flames where they would like to put the stadium if they want public financing.

The rest is speculation and only shows your view so completely skewed by a hate for Nenshi that it's not worth bothering anymore.

Sorry - didn't think I was being that skewed... I use HE because Nenshi is the face and voice for council on this issue. While we hear a peep occasionally from someone else, Nenshi is the voice - he's the one coming out and saying things like "CalgaryNext is dead", etc.

I do truly believe that Nenshi takes the East Village thing as a personal legacy. But if it affects your sensibilities (and to correct myself), then yes, "the city" is telling them to put it in East village, and "the city" isn't offering to pay for anything, and leaving the Flames to pay for 2/3 (city fronting 1/3, but the FLames to pay it back, with the remaining 1/3 coming from a ticket tax).

Any way you cut it, it isn't a reasonable request.

[Roughneck]

Originally Posted by Bourque's Twin

If Bill Smith gets elected, both parties can renew negotiations with good faith.

Please provide an example where Nenshi or the city negotiated in bad faith.

[MRCboicgy]

Originally Posted by New Era

Except you aren't right.

Except he did posit how it would be "paid back" via CRL etc.

One thing that plenty of people are ignoring in this issue is that the CSEC doesn't have the land to build this, they need to work within the greater plans of the city. It might be easy to label it "Nenshi's vision," especially since his bloody website lays it out like that, but still, it's the city's vision and I'm sure plenty of folks at city hall have worked on this. There's no way he's doing it on a whim, urban planning simply doesn't work like that.

If ownership wants to control where it is built, then they have to own/have control of the land. If they want it downtown, they have to work within the development plans of the City Council, long term planning and all that, or privately buy the land. We can't just stick a rink anywhere downtown. It's a super complex process, and there's value to every square foot.

To do this now sucks, it's simply posturing for election sake, and CSEC will either get their way with their guy in office in a month, or will back down and work with the current administration to bring the Olympics here or whatever.

On either side, drop it with the ad hominem stuff on Nenshi or KK. Keep it civil, respectful and - imagine this - factual.

[Gaudreau is a Ninja]

Guys it's a bargaining tactic the Flames are not leaving Calgary!

[CaptainYooh]

Originally Posted by WinnipegFan

As a Winnipeger who watched their team leave as a teenager this situation in Calgary saddens me. People have no idea the affect losing a team that is this ingrained in a city's heritage can have until it is gone. Both sides need to sit down to hammer this out, egos need to be left out of it and people need to realize it easy to chastise the team while they are here. However, the void they will leave behind will haunt this city. The quick response of anger will fade, the "see you later" attitude will subside and then all we will be left with a silent arena and a piece of the city will die. A team can unite a city in victory and defeat, it inspires our children with heroes, it offers hope to thousands near and far, and it lightens a cold day with a warm flame. Don't be so quick to say goodbye Calgary fans, you don't know what you have until it is gone.

- a Jets Fan

This, people. Read this. This is 100% true. I've heard this same sentiment universally from Winnipeg people who both loved their Jets and people who didn't care much for hockey at all. NHL arena is a huge energy source of a vibrant city. The one that's hard if not impossible to replace.

I've had numerous conversations with people close to the Flames ownership and senior management groups. They all said the same thing: the Oilers deal was on many levels much better for Katz and more difficult for the City of Edmonton to digest, yet they've got it done and approved. By comparison, Flames' proposal for the Victoria Park arena was substantially lower in the participation/concessions requested and a lot easier for the City of Calgary to digest.

This has all started with Nenshi's posturing, his inexplicably stupid and pompous refusal to meet with Bettman and putting forward this public notion of "rich people getting into the taxpayers' pockets" nonsense.

NHL hockey is a huge and valuable community asset. This is what had preserved this team here in its dire financial times of early 2000's - those greedy bastards (Hotchkiss, McCaig, Seaman, Edwards, Markin and Libin) putting their own money into the losing venture just to keep it here, in Calgary.

I don't know and I can't say if today's announcement is part of the calculated political game with a far-fetching objective. I really hope so. But I will not be the one saying "good riddance" and "it was nice to know you", if the Flames leave Calgary. I will be one of those telling "those morons at the city really blew this one"...

[Ozy_Flame]

The Legacy of good Nenshi has done far outweighs any foibles about a private sports team. He will be elected again, and has been fantastic as our mayor - I challenge anyone else to personally do a better job than he has in his position as Calgary mayor. Bill Smith should not be elected simy because he might get along better with sports team owners.