[News] Ken King: Flames' owners no longer pursuing new arena with City of Calgary

[WinnipegFan]

As a Winnipeger who watched their team leave as a teenager this situation in Calgary saddens me. People have no idea the affect losing a team that is this ingrained in a city's heritage can have until it is gone. Both sides need to sit down to hammer this out, egos need to be left out of it and people need to realize it easy to chastise the team while they are here. However, the void they will leave behind will haunt this city. The quick response of anger will fade, the "see you later" attitude will subside and then all we will be left with a silent arena and a piece of the city will die. A team can unite a city in victory and defeat, it inspires our children with heroes, it offers hope to thousands near and far, and it lightens a cold day with a warm flame. Don't be so quick to say goodbye Calgary fans, you don't know what you have until it is gone.

- a Jets Fan

[DJones]

Originally Posted by TheKurgan

You would think the people who don't want public money to be spent on a new arena would be happy. Flames asked for public money, Nenshi said no, Flames say okay we won't build a new arena. There done, no public money is going to be spent, and the Flames are still in Calgary for now. Isn't this exactly what the "no public money" crowd wanted?

They wanted the Flames owners to pay for everything and be grateful for the opportunity.

Like I don't get it. The arena costs 450M according to the Calgary Next proposal. They offered 200M and 250M in ticket tax. People seem picky on the ticket tax so say they get that 250M from a Bank instead of the city. They pay an extra percent interest and boom. They paid for the arena.

Do people really expect them to pay for all the infrastructure in getting an outdated part of the city up to snuff? God forbid they get free land that was a contaminated parking lot before.

[Bunk]

It's hard to be this right all the time.

On the 1/3 "to be paid back" it'll be interesting to hear what that means. Since the Mayor talked a lot about "extending what is being done in East Village" that sounds a lot like CRL. Which is public financing paid back through property taxes. I wonder if this means having the Flames own the arena and instead of paying rent like is typical - pay typical commercial property tax assessing the arena as a commercial use at market value. That would "pay back" the 1/3 contribution. We'll see.

From the globe and mail article posted 20 minutes ago:

"Calgary offered to pay for one-third of the arena, in equal instalments over a number of years, according to a source. The money would have to be paid back. The ownership group, according to this proposal, would cover another third of the total cost and surcharge on tickets would pay for the remaining third, the source said.

The Flames organization rejected the offer, the source said."

https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/spo...service=mobile

Originally Posted by Bunk

Not taken aback, ready to lay down their hammer. This is like Christmas frickin' Day for him (ok, Maybe not Christmas, but you know).

Among the best things that could have happened following his District Plan announcement last week, this is probably beyond his wildest hopes. Mr. Popular, Gary Bettman even weighed in. It enables him to say what he really wants to say, which is the deal they are prepared to offer.

If I were him - or the City representative, this is what I'd do and say:

- I'd have a huge press conference tomorrow morning:
- I'd lay out the deal they were prepared to offer - hmmmm, I bet it's something like 1/3 public contribution through land and CRL, 1/3 ticket tax, 1/3 direct owner's contrtibution. That's the obvious sweet spot for a fair deal.
- I'd talk about how this is a fair proportion between, private, public and users themselves
- I'd talk about how the Edmonton Arena deal can't work here, Edmonton's downtown called for desperate measures and they had office tenants at the time that could make the debt deal work. Here, there is no such tenant: 30% vacancy
-I'd talk about the Seattle privately financed deal, and that this deal is far more generous from the public.
- I'd talk about how this is a predictiable tactic and welcome the Flames back to the table at any time to participate in the grand plans for Victoria Park

And that's not going to go well for the Flames, I predict.

[Roughneck]

Originally Posted by SmoggyFlamesFan

I get that we don't want to bend over backwards with public funding, but what else does it go towards? A space bridge?

Provincial funding via the Municipal Sustainability Initiative, so not really available for an arena, particularly a private one.

A half a million dollar stick and stone art exhibit?

As mentioned, half a million in bad money doesn't justify half a billion.

A giant statue of a head in front of the bow building?

Not public money.

I'd much rather spend public money on an arena (even if not a large sum) than on all that useless crap.

You've identified half a million in egregious spending by the city. If that's what it costs to make a deal, then sign me up!

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by dino7c

you guys are all acting like your girlfriend just dumped you...

"won't miss her anyways"

"I will just date Austin Matthews"

"Girls are a waste of time anyway, I can spend the time doing something wise like studying Viking history"

lol

Hey nice drive by!

And your stupid comparison only works if my ex girlfriend is a scumbag who dumped me because I wouldn't buy her a brand new BMW, even though she's a trust fund kid and I'm barely scraping by. Oh and she only wants me to pay for it because he dbag friends all scammed their moron boyfriends into buying them new BMWs and she doesnt want to be left out.

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by DJones

They wanted the Flames owners to pay for everything and be grateful for the opportunity.

Like I don't get it. The arena costs 450M according to the Calgary Next proposal. They offered 200M and 250M in ticket tax. People seem picky on the ticket tax so say they get that 250M from a Bank instead of the city. They pay an extra percent interest and boom. They paid for the arena.

Do people really expect them to pay for all the infrastructure in getting an outdated part of the city up to snuff? God forbid they get free land that was a contaminated parking lot before.

No one has been saying that.

[Matty81]

New owners might be the best thing in the long run. Nenshi will be gone in 5-10 years. Flames are bigger than any of them. Wonder if Garrett Camp is a flames fan?

[PaperBagger'14]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

Goddamn it these takes need to stop. Bang on the blue ring forever, don't care, but choosing the enrich billionaires over a library....no.

Every book you've ever wanted to read is available for free on the internet. Every single one, they've all been transcribed. If you're having trouble finding one I can have you a copy in under an hour.

I don't want this city getting bent over like Edmonton did, however we have squandered money away on far more useless things like libraries.

For some quick math the saddledome seats ~20k. Calgary has a population of ~1 mil. So on any given sell out game we have 2% of the population of the city in the dome. Now let's multiply that by 41 home games. So 820 000 people attend a flames game assuming sell outs. Let's knock that down to 750 000 because not every night is a sell out. I just want to iterate that this is napkin math and speculation and is part of my reasoning. If there's stats to dispute it is gladly change my stance.

Do you think 750 000 people are using that damn library a year? 500 000? 25 000? I don't have access to the info to base my stance off of, however I doubt there's ~2000 people effectively using that library per day.

[TheKurgan]

Originally Posted by DJones

They wanted the Flames owners to pay for everything and be grateful for the opportunity.

Like I don't get it. The arena costs 450M according to the Calgary Next proposal. They offered 200M and 250M in ticket tax. People seem picky on the ticket tax so say they get that 250M from a Bank instead of the city. They pay an extra percent interest and boom. They paid for the arena.

Do people really expect them to pay for all the infrastructure in getting an outdated part of the city up to snuff? God forbid they get free land that was a contaminated parking lot before.

I don't know, people are delusional these days. I guess that is why we have an NDP government. Everyone wants nice things, but they don't want to pay for it themselves.

[DJones]

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

No one has been saying that.

Pick a page at random and someone would have said no public funding should be used with the added expectation that they stay in Calgary

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by New Era

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgar...900m-1.3195174

"It's not for the elites. It's not for the hockey players, not for the football players. It's for all of the citizens in our city," he said as he unveiled drawings that also showed several new condo and commercial towers and a hotel surrounding the new sports facilities.

The Flames could barely plan out at rendering of condo towers...do you really believe they could have a comprehensive plan for an entire neighborhood? It's easy to have grand visions in your head. Its a totally different thing to actually make them happen. The Flames can't even make an arena happen, never mind a whole district.

Go look at the East Village, or Riverwalk, or Curry Barracks. That's what happens when an organization that knows what it's doing stars redeveloping a crappy piece of land. The Flames couldn't even make a decent powerpoint presentation of one.

[Gaudfather]

Originally Posted by WinnipegFan

As a Winnipeger who watched their team leave as a teenager this situation in Calgary saddens me. People have no idea the affect losing a team that is this ingrained in a city's heritage can have until it is gone. Both sides need to sit down to hammer this out, egos need to be left out of it and people need to realize it easy to chastise the team while they are here. However, the void they will leave behind will haunt this city. The quick response of anger will fade, the "see you later" attitude will subside and then all we will be left with a silent arena and a piece of the city will die. A team can unite a city in victory and defeat, it inspires our children with heroes, it offers hope to thousands near and far, and it lightens a cold day with a warm flame. Don't be so quick to say goodbye Calgary fans, you don't know what you have until it is gone.

- a Jets Fan

I agree with what you are saying. There is another aspect to this too.

These are the owners of the Flames - Murray Edwards, Alvin Libin, Allan Markin, Jeffrey McCaig, Clay Riddell and Byron Seaman - all have a tremendous Calgary heritage and contributed greatly to the community here - I just cant see these guys tainting their legacy by being known as moving the Flames out of Calgary for a few bucks!

[Manhattanboy]

I really do think it's important going forward that neither Nenshi nor King lead the negotiations.

[Cube Inmate]

Originally Posted by Matty81

New owners might be the best thing in the long run. Nenshi will be gone in 5-10 years. Flames are bigger than any of them. Wonder if Garrett Camp is a flames fan?

WTF? I lived across the alley from this guy growing up and had no clue he'd struck it rich! Wish I'd been nicer to him....

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

I totally disagree. I am born and raised here and I really do think it's a question of what we want to be as a City. I could go on and on about my disappointments as a Calgarian with the way this City has been managed in the last 15 years or so. It takes 10 years to get an interchange built.

I don't trust Nenshi or Council to negotiate such an important deal.

Maybe we need a plebiscite or referendum on the matter. But it looks like this election may be just that.

Well I hear you but I truly believe there is more to do in Calgary in January than watching Flames games. But if enough people feel that way then the city should be ponying up I suppose.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Originally Posted by PaperBagger'14

Every book you've ever wanted to read is available for free on the internet. Every single one, they've all been transcribed. If you're having trouble finding one I can have you a copy in under an hour.

I don't want this city getting bent over like Edmonton did, however we have squandered money away on far more useless things like libraries.

For some quick math the saddledome seats ~20k. Calgary has a population of ~1 mil. So on any given sell out game we have 2% of the population of the city in the dome. Now let's multiply that by 41 home games. So 820 000 people attend a flames game assuming sell outs. Let's knock that down to 750 000 because not every night is a sell out. I just want to iterate that this is napkin math and speculation and is part of my reasoning. If there's stats to dispute it is gladly change my stance.

Do you think 750 000 people are using that damn library a year? 500 000? 25 000? I don't have access to the info to base my stance off of, however I doubt there's ~2000 people effectively using that library per day.

I keep rehashing posts I've already made, but the only thing that matters is the cost to use the library is an affordable free.99, while the arena, for hockey at the very least, will cost 20% or more to get in (and it is never free to go in for the events people really wanna see). Plus we can't forget the principle which is pretty important. The city will kick in the land swap and the infrastructure upgrades. That is significant, but it's not what the Flames want. They want that, plus probably at least 50% from the city. That's just not acceptable.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Bunk

It's hard to be this right all the time.

Except you aren't right.

"Calgary offered to pay for one-third of the arena, in equal instalments over a number of years, according to a source. The money would have to be paid back. The ownership group, according to this proposal, would cover another third of the total cost and surcharge on tickets would pay for the remaining third, the source said.

The Flames organization rejected the offer, the source said."

So the city really isn't contributing anything, because they are getting their money back. For the honor of the city guaranteeing 1/3 of the money through some type of loan, the Flames get to build their arena where the city tells them, has no opportunity to develop the entertainment district, and has zero opportunity to develop condos or other commercial properties.

So pay for a second rate building on a third rate site where they get no opportunity for revenues outside the arena. Oh, and that would be on city owned land, in a deal made with the Stampede board in a land swap. Hard to believe the Flames would walk away from such an amazing deal for them?

[JiriHrdina]

This just sucks all around, particularly on the eve of a new season.
None of this will help generate excitement in the city for the team.
None of this will help re-sign key players or attract new ones.
It has been bungled on all ends and on all sides. The public comments, the negotiation tactics, the sniping. All of it sucks.
If this causes the Flames to leave the city, everyone involved deserves to be blamed for not finding a way to make this work. It will be utter failure for everyone involved.
Sports is supposed to be fun but it is becoming increasingly less so.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by WinnipegFan

A team can unite a city in victory and defeat, it inspires our children with heroes, it offers hope to thousands near and far, and it lightens a cold day with a warm flame.
- a Jets Fan

You got all of that out of being a Jet's fan!?

[nik-]

If only there was a way the Flames could control the site they built their arena on.