Children on Public Transit

[GGG]

Originally Posted by #-3

That just isn't true at all.

The world is generally a much safer place today than it was 15-20 years ago and that especially extends to Canada. I wish the statistics were out there, but I would be willing to bet it extends even more so to children.

For better and worse, society has moved to goal posts on what an acceptable level of risk is, and what level of harm we will tolerate. Its a line every parent sees in a different place, and struggles with the idea that they might have misplaced.

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/85-002-.../c-g01-eng.gif

I think the issue though is that parents and society incorrectly assess the risk of harm. While we do have a lower tolerance for risk we also grossly exaggerate the risk. For example all the homeless Creepy people at the LRT station are probably less likely to sexually assault or kidnap your child than a family member, coach or teacher.

[OMG!WTF!]

Originally Posted by GGG

I think the issue though is that parents and society incorrectly assess the risk of harm. While we do have a lower tolerance for risk we also grossly exaggerate the risk. For example all the homeless Creepy people at the LRT station are probably less likely to sexually assault or kidnap your child than a family member, coach or teacher.

I think that's a really incorrect way to assess risk. A child is more likely to be abused by family, friends and those involved in their lives day to day for sure. But this is almost entirely because of the amount of time in contact with and relationship status of family, teachers and coaches. It's definitely not because of the inherent goodness of transient people.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by OMG!WTF!

I think that's a really incorrect way to assess risk. A child is more likely to be abused by family, friends and those involved in their lives day to day for sure. But this is almost entirely because of the amount of time in contact with and relationship status of family, teachers and coaches. It's definitely not because of the inherent goodness of transient people.

That's the point though.

If you are afraid of your child being sexually assaulted or kidnapped then you should be focusing on the causes of sexually assault and kidnapping and working to mitigate those. There is minimal risk from the vagrants because exposure time is low and the lack of any relationship.

But if you asked people who is more likely to harm their kid a vagrant at the C-Train station or the gym teacher the majority of people are picking vagrant.

So people choose to restrict tasks based on risk that simply doesn't exist while ignoring much higher risk areas that their children are exposed to longer.

[Knalus]

Originally Posted by Jacks

The only difference I see today is that people are afraid to get involved if someone is being harassed. I can't see people standing by while a child is being harassed/threatened/accosted but who knows I guess.

So, interesting anecdote here.

I take a transit bus to work. There is an elementary school on the route, and last few years there would be the occasional small schoolaged child that would go to that school that would take the bus. Think grade 3 or 4, I think.

Funniest thing is, that everyone on the bus was looking out for these kids. If the kid dropped her mitten - someone would grab it for her and make sure she didn't forget it. If she fell asleep, and it would be her stop, someone would wake her up.

It felt good knowing that these parents still would let their child take the bus, and not be afraid of the rest of us that were on the bus with the kid, and it also felt pretty good seeing how everyone had the kids best interest at heart.

[Russic]

Originally Posted by Knalus

So, interesting anecdote here.

I take a transit bus to work. There is an elementary school on the route, and last few years there would be the occasional small schoolaged child that would go to that school that would take the bus. Think grade 3 or 4, I think.

Funniest thing is, that everyone on the bus was looking out for these kids. If the kid dropped her mitten - someone would grab it for her and make sure she didn't forget it. If she fell asleep, and it would be her stop, someone would wake her up.

It felt good knowing that these parents still would let their child take the bus, and not be afraid of the rest of us that were on the bus with the kid, and it also felt pretty good seeing how everyone had the kids best interest at heart.

I strongly agree here. I'm not saying what Corral is seeing isn't real, but it certainly isn't my experience. I've been riding the train almost daily for about 10 years, and I actually struggle to think of a single experience where my kids would be in actual danger. Some uncomfortableness for sure, but almost all instances I can think of fall well outside the time you'd expect a child to be on the train alone.

I know it's popular to claim the world is slipping straight into hell, but I can't help but feel people see what they want to see. Perhaps I'm guilty of the exact same thing going the other way, but it seems like people are quite helpful. They may be shy, but they're helpful. The last few pregnant women I've seen on the train create an almost comical and awkward display of people jumping out of their seats to let her sit.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Russic

I strongly agree here. I'm not saying what Corral is seeing isn't real, but it certainly isn't my experience. I've been riding the train almost daily for about 10 years, and I actually struggle to think of a single experience where my kids would be in actual danger. Some uncomfortableness for sure, but almost all instances I can think of fall well outside the time you'd expect a child to be on the train alone.

I know it's popular to claim the world is slipping straight into hell, but I can't help but feel people see what they want to see. Perhaps I'm guilty of the exact same thing going the other way, but it seems like people are quite helpful. They may be shy, but they're helpful. The last few pregnant women I've seen on the train create an almost comical and awkward display of people jumping out of their seats to let her sit.

I think we're talking past each other. During the day when kids would take the train? I agree it's safe. And people are generally polite and considerate. I wouldn't have a problem letting my 10 year old take the train from Southland station to downtown.

But how much have you taken the train after 9 pm in the last few years? Because in my experience, the train gets really sketchy later at night.

[taco.vidal]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

I have to agree with Corral on this one. The C-Train has changed. After 8 or 9 pm, you get some real menacing characters on the train. People I would avoid making any eye contact with. And unlike Europe, outside of commuting hours you do not get any regular citizens on the train. You get the poor - recent immigrant poor, teen poor, elderly poor. On the times I've been on the train later at night in the last few years, I've estimated that I would be the only person who would intervene in any way if something bad went down. It's the kind of vibe where you know if someone got sexually harassed or stabbed, none of the other 8 or 9 people in the car would lift a finger.

So you are scared of or freightened by poor people, especially if they are teenagers, old, or immigrants. What if they are poor teenage immigrants? Would that be cause to hit the emergency call button on the train or at the station? Maybe even a 911 call would be warranted.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

I think we're talking past each other. During the day when kids would take the train? I agree it's safe. And people are generally polite and considerate. I wouldn't have a problem letting my 10 year old take the train from Southland station to downtown.

But how much have you taken the train after 9 pm in the last few years? Because in my experience, the train gets really sketchy later at night.

I'd agree with this though I think it only feels sketchy as opposed to is sketchy. For example a fight between drunk homeless people on the train feels dangerous and the random drunk mentally ill person shouting about how you need to be saved or your going to hell feels dangerous however most of these people won't harm you.

For a person who isn't drunk and paying attention to their surroundings it isn't dangerous despite how it might feel. That said I am a big white guy not a 100lb women so that perception is likely not a universal experience.

[GirlySports]

We have to teach kids to be less shy. My daughter is turning 6 soon and I'm just teaching her little things to be resourceful. She can be seen frequenting many play areas in many malls so I tell her, if for any reason you get lost in the mall. Meet "here". I introduced her to the Market Mall security guard, if you get lost find a person wearing this uniform. Say "excuse me, I can't find my mom, can you take me to the play area by Aldo?"

Or at Chinook, "Hello, I'm lost, can you take me to the merry-go-round in the food court?"

When I was a kid my mom taught me the word "information". If you get lost look for a sign called information and stay there. Then it would go on the loudspeaker "Could Girly's parents please come get her at information!!!!"

It's amazing what kids can memorize.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by taco.vidal

So you are scared of or freightened by poor people, especially if they are teenagers, old, or immigrants. What if they are poor teenage immigrants? Would that be cause to hit the emergency call button on the train or at the station? Maybe even a 911 call would be warranted.

No, I'm wary of the groups of feral and wasted 17 to 26 year olds who act belligerently and glare around them daring anyone to make eye contact. And I don't have much confidence that the callow youths and elderly immigrants who make up most of the passengers at that time of night would intervene in any way if something bad did go down.

[Canehdianman]

Originally Posted by Corral

If you've been on the CTrain or at a station later in the evening regularly over the past several years in Calgary - you will agree with me that you would NEVER want one of your kids on that service anytime it isn't absolutely necessary for some reason or another. I've seen some pretty nasty characters on those trains and it chills me to the bone to think of anyone in my family being anywhere near them in a confined space like that. No thanks.

Its those moments when it is very clear that Calgary is not the place it was 20 or 30 years ago when others here say they rode transit on their own as youth.

Seriously??

I can hear your blades whirling around from here.

[Locke]

I'd be interested to know what other people's experiences are with transit.

I find it cleaner, safer and easier than most major cities I've been to.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

We have to teach kids to be less shy. My daughter is turning 6 soon and I'm just teaching her little things to be resourceful. She can be seen frequenting many play areas in many malls so I tell her, if for any reason you get lost in the mall. Meet "here". I introduced her to the Market Mall security guard, if you get lost find a person wearing this uniform. Say "excuse me, I can't find my mom, can you take me to the play area by Aldo?"

Or at Chinook, "Hello, I'm lost, can you take me to the merry-go-round in the food court?"

When I was a kid my mom taught me the word "information". If you get lost look for a sign called information and stay there. Then it would go on the loudspeaker "Could Girly's parents please come get her at information!!!!"

It's amazing what kids can memorize.

It's why don't talk to strangers is terrible advice. In general a stranger is very likely to be able to help you out of whatever problem you are having

[jeffporfirio]

Coming from a Central American country, where taking transit is a gamble on your life (assault/robbery/rape/accidents), I find Calgary Transit extremely safe, clean and efficient.

Like so many other things in Canada (especially Calgary), we don't know how blessed we are, how good we have it, how spoiled we are.

My two oldest kids attend Catholic schools and take transit to and from school (My oldest from Rocky Ridge all the way to Bishop Carroll). They know their routes, and we have taught them to be aware of their surrounding and have never run into any problems.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by jeffporfirio

Coming from a Central American country, where taking transit is a gamble on your life (assault/robbery/rape/accidents), I find Calgary Transit extremely safe, clean and efficient.

Like so many other things in Canada (especially Calgary), we don't know how blessed we are, how good we have it, how spoiled we are.

My two oldest kids attend Catholic schools and take transit to and from school (My oldest from Rocky Ridge all the way to Bishop Carroll). They know their routes, and we have taught them to be aware of their surrounding and have never run into any problems.

Okay, but thats High School. High School aged kids should be more than capable of dealing with the rigors of Calgary Transit.

But I agree with you, South American public transit isnt something I'm familiar with but most North American and European public transit and I think we have it pretty good in Calgary.

I hate to be glib but if people think Calgary Transit is bad then they need to get around more.

I was on the subway in Paris and a woman literally opened her coat, pulled out a bottle of red wine, uncorked it and started pouring it into a glass and drinking.

Was I freaked out? Absolutely not! I was impressed! That takes talent and dedication.

I was in London the year they banned drinking on Public Transit and I toured around with a bunch of crazies going for one last drunken ride. The English are insane but no one was hurt. Except the one guy who got off the bus before it came to a full stop, but that was his own damn fault.

I took the train in Chicago and there was a dude doing what appeared to be meth. Thats his business, thats not my business.

I think the weirdest things I've ever seen on Calgary Transit was a very clearly homeless man speaking into a cell phone that didnt have a battery in it having a fake argument as though he were the band manager for Metallica.

No one was injured. It eventually got boring and the headphones went back in.

The kind of stuff on Calgary Transit is tame.

[tvp2003]

Does it depend on the station? I haven't taken Transit regularly for several years but I imagine the people heading up to Tuscany/Rocky Ridge are having a different experience than those cruising through Marlborough/Rundle/Whitehorn.

On somewhat of a tangent -- how many kids still walk to school these days? For the sake of argument I'll limit it to elementary and junior high school (i.e. under 12/13); are the suburbs that under-served that the need to bus kids is the now the majority and not the exception?

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Locke

The kind of stuff on Calgary Transit is tame.

Again, I'll have to ask: How often have you taken the C-Train after 9 pm in the last few years? Because 6 years ago, I would have absolutely agreed with you. But the train at night has a very different vibe now.

Originally Posted by tvp2003

On somewhat of a tangent -- how many kids still walk to school these days? For the sake of argument I'll limit it to elementary and junior high school (i.e. under 12/13); are the suburbs that under-served that the need to bus kids is the now the majority and not the exception?

IIRC, it's something like only 25 per cent walk. A few reasons for the dramatic decline in the last 20 years:

* Many new communities do not have schools. Alberta Education limits the number of new schools that can be built by the CBE while there are still older schools that are under-subscribed.

* Something like a quarter of students in the CBE now go to alternative schools with specialised programs. The students at these schools come from every corner of the city.

* Parents today will often drive children 3 blocks instead of letting them walk.

[JFK]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Again, I'll have to ask: How often have you taken the C-Train after 9 pm in the last few years? Because 6 years ago, I would have absolutely agreed with you. But the train at night has a very different vibe now.

How often do you?

It's not Mad Max: Ctrain Road out there, Cliff.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Again, I'll have to ask: How often have you taken the C-Train after 9 pm in the last few years? Because 6 years ago, I would have absolutely agreed with you. But the train at night has a very different vibe now.

Probably not as often as some, as I'm old now and I drink downtown much more rarely, but if the news is to be trusted if there was even a modicum of fear to be had they'd be milking it mercilessly.

The most dangerous part about the C-Train is getting hit by it.

[Weitz]

Originally Posted by Locke

Okay, but thats High School. High School aged kids should be more than capable of dealing with the rigors of Calgary Transit.

But I agree with you, South American public transit isnt something I'm familiar with but most North American and European public transit and I think we have it pretty good in Calgary.

I hate to be glib but if people think Calgary Transit is bad then they need to get around more.

I was on the subway in Paris and a woman literally opened her coat, pulled out a bottle of red wine, uncorked it and started pouring it into a glass and drinking.

Was I freaked out? Absolutely not! I was impressed! That takes talent and dedication.

I was in London the year they banned drinking on Public Transit and I toured around with a bunch of crazies going for one last drunken ride. The English are insane but no one was hurt. Except the one guy who got off the bus before it came to a full stop, but that was his own damn fault.

I took the train in Chicago and there was a dude doing what appeared to be meth. Thats his business, thats not my business.

I think the weirdest things I've ever seen on Calgary Transit was a very clearly homeless man speaking into a cell phone that didnt have a battery in it having a fake argument as though he were the band manager for Metallica.

No one was injured. It eventually got boring and the headphones went back in.

The kind of stuff on Calgary Transit is tame.

Not to nitpick but this literally a common experience in Calgary. Change red wine for other boozy products.