Shouldn't there be a statue of bin Laden? Need to make sure people remember!
Put it up next to the 9/11 memorial. Have him riding a horse and looking all triumphant with a plaque talking about his achievements. We need to remember.
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Have you guys heard about this Hitler fella?
Apparently he did some pretty terrible stuff back in like the 30s or 40s or something.
It'll probably be pretty tough to find any info on him, on account of, for some reason, there aren't any statues of him in Germany, but it's worth looking into.
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I'd just like to add one point to the monument debate; How come I haven't forgotten about the American Civil war? I mean, I don't think I have ever walked by a statue of Robert E. Lee.
The argument that we will all, collectively, forget about one of the ugliest times in American history because these monuments of racist traitors get moved to a museum or confederate cemetery is ridiculous.
In 2001, my wife and I did a cruise that was a round trip to and from New Orleans. We had some time to kill after the cruise, waiting for our flight home, so we did a quick tour of the cemeteries and down town area.
The guide was a big, middled aged southern bell with an accent and voice that made my teeth ache. The driver of the bus was a black man. One of the "features" of the tour was a drive by of a statue of Lee. I was astonished how BOTH of them fawned over how much Lee meant to the South.
I don't know if the statue is still there, but I sure hope the pride of having history as slavers dwindles. I would be ashamed to have a monument like that where I lived.
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In 2001, my wife and I did a cruise that was a round trip to and from New Orleans. We had some time to kill after the cruise, waiting for our flight home, so we did a quick tour of the cemeteries and down town area.
The guide was a big, middled aged southern bell with an accent and voice that made my teeth ache. The driver of the bus was a black man. One of the "features" of the tour was a drive by of a statue of Lee. I was astonished how BOTH of them fawned over how much Lee meant to the South.
I don't know if the statue is still there, but I sure hope the pride of having history as slavers dwindles. I would be ashamed to have a monument like that where I lived.
Was this your bus driver?
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Have you guys heard about this Hitler fella?
Apparently he did some pretty terrible stuff back in like the 30s or 40s or something.
It'll probably be pretty tough to find any info on him, on account of, for some reason, there aren't any statues of him in Germany, but it's worth looking into.
Obviously because Germany was occupied by the Victors. In the Civil war the south was left relatively to itself after the civil war and reconstruction. So it makes sense that the mythology of their past was celebrated rather than the imperialists in the North.
So the reason there aren't statues of Hitler isn't because everyone thought it was a bad idea. It was that the occupiers of Germany thought it was a bad idea and the populace over time agreed with that position.
The best comparable is the De-lenonization of the Ukraine going on right now.
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Congressional investigators have unearthed an email from a top Trump aide that referenced a previously unreported effort to arrange a meeting last year between Trump campaign officials and Russian President Vladimir Putin, according to sources with direct knowledge of the matter.
The aide, Rick Dearborn, who is now President Donald Trump's deputy chief of staff, sent a brief email to campaign officials last year relaying information about an individual who was seeking to connect top Trump officials with Putin, the sources said.
Quote:
Sources said the email occurred in June 2016 around the time of the recently revealed Trump Tower meeting where Russians with Kremlin ties met with the president's eldest son, Donald Trump Jr., his son-in-law Jared Kushner as well as then-campaign chairman, Paul Manafort.
While many details around the Dearborn email are unclear, its existence suggests the Russians may have been looking for another entry point into the Trump campaign to see if there were any willing partners as part of their effort to discredit -- and ultimately defeat -- Hillary Clinton.
It was pretty damn close tbqh. It was an older gentleman. It was him I was watching for a twinge of resentment, just couldn't see any. We just found it... odd.
I know its naive to think racism doesn't exist, even under our own noses, but is it still so rampant down there that you might get lynched for stating what Lee really was?
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It was pretty damn close tbqh. It was an older gentleman. It was him I was watching for a twinge of resentment, just couldn't see any. We just found it... odd.
I know its naive to think racism doesn't exist, even under our own noses, but is it still so rampant down there that you might get lynched for stating what Lee really was?
well, i'd guess that the individual wouldn't have a job if he spoke out against it... nor would i think that those who find it racist would be applying for this particular job...
wouldn't be the first time that someone swallowed their pride and labored at a job they hated in order to put food on the table.
hmmm it is their culture and their history. There are a few small percentage of Americans who are neo-nazis or white supremacists. But there are a lot of Confederates. Now whether you think they are all one and the same is an issue up for debate.
The latest 538 podcast with Vincent Hutchings is a good discussion on this issue.
This continues to come back to the irony of Trump's base and their "snowflake" arguments about people who aren't okay with racism/bigotry/misogyny, etc.
While these "Confederate" types who all voted Trump to "get their country back" love to tell Democrats "get over it, Trump won," they cling to a failed treasonous uprising from 150 years ago.
God forbid someone trips up their worldview that Confederate history isn't something to be celebrated but to be ashamed of. Their feelings get hurt.
These are people who are upset because Starbucks cups are "holiday" cups and that the person ringing them up at Walmart says "happy holidays. They're offended by rainbows.
They have zero self-awareness, and I'm just exhausted from being told that we have to feel bad for these people when they refuse to do anything for themselves, nor accept any blame for their place in life, and refuse to open an actual history book that doesn't have a Confederate slant. They rant about SJWs and yet they expect the entire world to slow down progress to make them feel better.
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Originally Posted by GirlySports
I believe the argument would be that blatant and hurtful reminders of past slavery and brutal racism is part of culture and history. It could be a reminder to not repeat it.
I'm bring very simplistic here. This issue has been debated in detail in the Charlottesville thread.
If you need a reminder to not repeat it, you place these monuments and flags where they belong--in museums, with proper context. You don't put them in town squares on pedestals like they're heroes.
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Originally Posted by Fozzie_DeBear
If the monuments were a testimony to the brutality of the period (eg Auschwitz) then that would make more sense. However, the monuments to the horror of slavery are few and the monuments to the glory/sacrifice of the Confederacy are plentiful.
This is a huge point that often goes overlooked. I think it was mentioned earlier in this thread (though it may have been the Charlottesville thread) that Germany does a fantastic job of acknowledging the stain of their history, while not celebrating the ugliness of it. But they don't hide it, they don't pretend Hitler and the Holocaust never happened.
The US likes to celebrate Thanksgiving Day and then tucks all that "genocide of the Native Americans" under the rug. They like to celebrate Lincoln freeing the slaves, but pretend Americans weren't the ones doing the slave buying/selling/trading. There are awful parts of American history that you don't learn unless you research well beyond what you're taught in school. We refuse to face our flaws as a country, and so we can't ever move past them.
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This is a huge point that often goes overlooked. I think it was mentioned earlier in this thread (though it may have been the Charlottesville thread) that Germany does a fantastic job of acknowledging the stain of their history, while not celebrating the ugliness of it. But they don't hide it, they don't pretend Hitler and the Holocaust never happened.
The US likes to celebrate Thanksgiving Day and then tucks all that "genocide of the Native Americans" under the rug. They like to celebrate Lincoln freeing the slaves, but pretend Americans weren't the ones doing the slave buying/selling/trading. There are awful parts of American history that you don't learn unless you research well beyond what you're taught in school. We refuse to face our flaws as a country, and so we can't ever move past them.
Yeah, I shake my head when people rant about 'where did all this racism and hate come from in America' or 'this isn't America'...yes, yes it is. Racism and hatred are a very real part of the culture of America and denying it doesn't make it go away.
Canadians have a similar flaw...we don't realize how in the 1700-1800's there was huge institutionalized actions that killed thousands of First Nations peoples. It was bad, maybe not as bad as other places, but we have a pretty huge cultural blind spot about that history. It messes with our self-narrative of polite, peaceful people who treat various cultures with respect.
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Yeah, I shake my head when people rant about 'where did all this racism and hate come from in America' or 'this isn't America'...yes, yes it is. Racism and hatred are a very real part of the culture of America and denying it doesn't make it go away.
Canadians have a similar flaw...we don't realize how in the 1700-1800's there was huge institutionalized actions that killed thousands of First Nations peoples. It was bad, maybe not as bad as other places, but we have a pretty huge cultural blind spot about that history. It messes with our self-narrative of polite, peaceful people who treat various cultures with respect.
The last residential schools closed in the 1990's. Not too long ago.
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The White House has prepared paperwork for U.S. President Donald Trump to pardon Joe Arpaio, the controversial former Arizona sheriff convicted last month of criminal contempt in a racial profiling case, CNN reported on Wednesday.
The last residential schools closed in the 1990's. Not too long ago.
This. Residential schools were merely a half generation before mine (late 30's). Plus people also think the "event"that caused the natives to lose their land happened a century ago. Except there's never been any such event, just a slow creep that's still happening. We're still going back on previous agreements
The last residential schools closed in the 1990's. Not too long ago.
Nah, nevermind talking about any of that. That's not the "right kind of narrative, the right story to tell". That's not a "good foil".
It's far more satisfying to castigate the obvious target.
It was pretty damn close tbqh. It was an older gentleman. It was him I was watching for a twinge of resentment, just couldn't see any. We just found it... odd.
I know its naive to think racism doesn't exist, even under our own noses, but is it still so rampant down there that you might get lynched for stating what Lee really was?
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Obviously because Germany was occupied by the Victors. In the Civil war the south was left relatively to itself after the civil war and reconstruction. So it makes sense that the mythology of their past was celebrated rather than the imperialists in the North.
here's a good opinion piece posted on CNN yesterday that speaks to the issue.
"At a time of debate over the removal of Confederate monuments and amid charges that some protestors want to "erase history," Longstreet's near-expungement raises questions about whose history is being scrubbed away and why that history was created in the first place. It underscores that history -- and particularly the history of the Civil War -- is not simply an objective chronicling of facts. It is often shaped by people to promote particular political agendas and ideologies."
It's quite interesting.
makes me want to learn more about this guy, and I thought it gave some context to the current issues.
Girlysports, I hope you'll read this.
Last edited by GordonBlue; 08-24-2017 at 07:30 AM.
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