Charlottesville VA - WTF???

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Actually, the opposite is true. I can't find it right now, but a poll earlier this year showed Canadians' overestimate how widespread bigotry is. Canadians thought something like 40 per cent of their fellow-citizens believed homosexuality was morally wrong, but in fact only 15 per cent believe that. There were similar numbers around the question of whether we should encourage women to enjoy every freedom men enjoy - Canadians thought far more people were opposed to that ideal than were in fact opposed.

That's not really in touch with the point I was making.

To put it another way: the prevalence of casual bigotry and ignorance is problematic because it makes unclear the path between that, and hate. Great, 15% of Canadians believe homosexuality is morally wrong, but the problem is not the 15%, it's the 25% that create the illusion of a much bigger problem by being accidentally compulsory in it instead of resistant to it.

Maybe your experience is different, but from my own personal experience I would say that 40% is closer to accurate than 15% of those people who still make gay jokes, call it gross, say ignorant and demeaning things without even thinking, etc. Do these people think it's morally wrong? Maybe not, but that doesn't excuse their use of bigoted ideas, language, and politics. And for the 1/10 that believe it IS morally wrong, they see people dismissing casual bigotry as no big deal and it emboldens their views.

So the issue is, and will continue to be, how much longer do we sit and accept casual bigotry (in relation to this event: racism), because it's "just a joke" or "not hurting anyone" when in fact all our acceptance of it does is normalise ####ty people and their ####ty behaviour.

The solution is to condemn even hints of dumb bigotry. Jokes, asides, you're grandpa's crazy ramblings. Why let any of it slide? You're not helping anyone by doing so. Prove as a society we can fix the problem instead of just making jokes while we pretend it's fixed.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

You're saying that 40% of people you come across, in your estimation, make either homophobic comments or jokes? I'm very surprised to hear that... In my social circle, if anyone were to make a gay joke, the immediate response would be "that's not okay". I'm not gay, so that may affect the degree to which I hear that stuff to some extent. Although you'd think that you'd hear that sort of stuff more in a group of straight people, where the sort of person who thinks making homophobic jokes might believe they're safe to do so without objection, so... I don't know. That's just really surprising.

[Flash Walken]

Like I said previously, there are serious misgivings in the academic community among historians about the current political climate and direct parallels to weimar germany.

https://twitter.com/kpanyc/status/896719974231945216

This was before the Holocaust, but then again Hitler had explained exactly what he wanted to do in Mein Kampf (1925-26). Some didn't believe he was really as bad as that sounded, but others LIKED that he sounded that bad. Just like now.

[PepsiFree]

On the white washing history argument, I think there are examples of that but I don't believe tearing down statues of General Lee are a very good example.

You can recognise a troubled history by having monuments that don't glorify or celebrate it. A statue of Hitler? Tear it down. The holocaust memorial? Make it an essential for any young person. Education need not be leaving up every example of the ways we went wrong. They should either be changed to make clear our mistakes, or taken down. There is no place for monuments that glorify points and figures we should've progressed past as a society.

[Flash Walken]

They should replace every statue with a statue of a significant black leader of the civil rights movement.

[transplant99]

Speaking of leaders in the civil rights movement, this quote is something everyone should take a second to absorb..

Violence as a way of achieving racial justice is both impractical and immoral. I am not unmindful of the fact that violence often brings about momentary results. Nations have frequently won their independence in battle. But in spite of temporary victories, violence never brings permanent peace.

Martin Luther King, Jr.

It's no less true today than it was when he was literally giving his life for it. Truly one of the greatest Americans ever.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

They should replace every statue with a statue of a significant black leader of the civil rights movement.

SHould we (Canada) take down Nellie Mclung statues and replace them with Native heros?

I think history being messy is important. A sanitized version isn't great. A statue of Lee should be left and context created around it to explain his role and the acts that followed.

By sanitizing history you miss the detail.

Malcolm Gladwells revisionist history podcast has some excellent episodes on racism and the civil rights movement and how it has been misrepresented overtime.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

So the issue is, and will continue to be, how much longer do we sit and accept casual bigotry (in relation to this event: racism), because it's "just a joke" or "not hurting anyone" when in fact all our acceptance of it does is normalise ####ty people and their ####ty behaviour.

What do you mean by accept? In law?

And who gets to decide which groups people can't make negative comments or jokes about? A lot of people get deeply offended when the flag is defaced. Should it be illegal? Some are wounded when the Catholic Church, or the military, or police officers, or rednecks, or Christians are insulted.

Who decides which groups can be insulted and which can't? The courts? The president of the United States? You?

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

The solution is to condemn even hints of dumb bigotry. Jokes, asides, you're grandpa's crazy ramblings. Why let any of it slide? You're not helping anyone by doing so. Prove as a society we can fix the problem instead of just making jokes while we pretend it's fixed.

I recently watched a couple celebrity roasts on Netflix. Foul, offensive bigotry from start to finish. Should that kind of shock humour be prohibited by law? Or should the comedians who take part simply be shamed into stopping?

The ACLU has defended Communists, Nazis, African Americans, the right to abortion, the right to burn flags, and the right to burn crosses. Some people see those actions as principled and consistent. Others don't. That disagreement represents a pretty fundamental difference in worldview - that between liberal and illiberal.

Liberal ideals have seen us make tremendous progress. Abandoning those ideals is, in my opinion, the surest way to put that progress in jeopardy.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by GGG

SHould we (Canada) take down Nellie Mclung statues and replace them with Native heros?

I think history being messy is important. A sanitized version isn't great. A statue of Lee should be left and context created around it to explain his role and the acts that followed.

By sanitizing history you miss the detail.

Malcolm Gladwells revisionist history podcast has some excellent episodes on racism and the civil rights movement and how it has been misrepresented overtime.

These comparisons are, forgive me, idiotic.

Did Nellie Mclung start a war to separate from Canada in order to practice eugenics? Were commemorations of her put up to celebrate her role in legislating eugenics? Is there a significant part of the alberta population that drives around with Eugenics flags celebrating Nellie McLung? Did statues of her gain in popularity as a protest after alberta's eugenics laws were repealed?

No?

Oh.

Removing a statue of a confederate general put up in the 1950s or 60s is not, in any way, sanitizing history. A confederate general statue that is less than 100 years old is immaterial to an understanding of history. Even age itself does not confer historical value. It is a vessel void of historical importance. It will only gain historical significance in another 50 or so years for discussion of the events around it's removal, not for existing in the first place.

Sanitizing history is what happens in american classrooms regularly, not public debate and removal of confederate statues erected in the height of racial tensions following and in response to federal desegregation.

[GGG]

Did Lee start a war to separate The US from the states?
Was Lee an active proponeant of slavery? It's unclear, but in general he was a fighting out of nationalism rather than pro slavery. He was definitely racist and thoughts blacks were unintelligent though he also started schools for blacks. He also was in favour of sending them all back to Africa. Though Lee actually would likely be against statues being put up of him celebrating southern independence given his role during the reconstruction.

It's quite odd that they choose Lee as the hero of the South. He actually has a fascinating role in post war reconstruction and in general was against Southern Nationalism.

That aside, the statues should stay explaining why it was erected in the first place. It absolutely whitewashes history. This statue was erected for a reason and even when that reason is hate it's still part of the historical context. It will become an embarrassment over time but it should remain.

Do you support the De-Leninization of the Ukraine?

Also I do agree with you that in general History is poorly taught and misses the sins of our forefathers but also when discussing those sins the context of the time it happens in.

[N-E-B]

There's a difference between erasing the past and destroying monuments to dickheads.

Take the statue down.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by GGG

Did Lee start a war to separate The US from the states?
Was Lee an active proponeant of slavery? It's unclear, but in general he was a fighting out of nationalism rather than pro slavery. He was definitely racist and thoughts blacks were unintelligent though he also started schools for blacks. He also was in favour of sending them all back to Africa. Though Lee actually would likely be against statues being put up of him celebrating southern independence given his role during the reconstruction.

It's quite odd that they choose Lee as the hero of the South. He actually has a fascinating role in post war reconstruction and in general was against Southern Nationalism.

That aside, the statues should stay explaining why it was erected in the first place. It absolutely whitewashes history. This statue was erected for a reason and even when that reason is hate it's still part of the historical context. It will become an embarrassment over time but it should remain.

Do you support the De-Leninization of the Ukraine?

Also I do agree with you that in general History is poorly taught and misses the sins of our forefathers but also when discussing those sins the context of the time it happens in.

I would support no new statues of lenin going up in the Ukraine, which would be the equivalent of adding a confederate general statue to a public square in Charlottesville in the 1920s.

My position is simple. The statues have historical value for their ties to the artists who were commissioned to create them, to the history of local governance, smithing, to the legacy of the public donation of the parks they reside in, etc. They should be preserved as historical artifacts. Perhaps some of them are representative of artistic styles or artists. Maybe someone will want them around for a thesis on bronze work in america in the early 20th century.

But they aren't necessary to illuminate or commemorate the civil war and what it represents. They should be removed from public spaces and the ones deemed to have the most historic value or artistic sentiment preserved in a museum type environment like how it is done in Memento Park in Budapest for instance. The rest? I don't know, sold to private museums? Melted down for scrap? Used as artificial marine habitat?

[afc wimbledon]

If the statue of Lee was sculpted by Rodin or Picasso it would have artistic merit, the rubbish you find in the middle of a park cranked out by some unknown graduate of the Art Institute of Pittsburgh or the like is not art, it has less merit than the rocks on sticks and that's going some.

[photon]

Every day, the White House communications office sends official talking points to Republican members of Congress. These communiqués help the GOP stay on the same page (and, in the Trump era, help the embattled president’s allies come up with arguments in his defense).

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics...orrect/537042/

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

What do you mean by accept? In law?

And who gets to decide which groups people can't make negative comments or jokes about? A lot of people get deeply offended when the flag is defaced. Should it be illegal? Some are wounded when the Catholic Church, or the military, or police officers, or rednecks, or Christians are insulted.

Who decides which groups can be insulted and which can't? The courts? The president of the United States? You?



I recently watched a couple celebrity roasts on Netflix. Foul, offensive bigotry from start to finish. Should that kind of shock humour be prohibited by law? Or should the comedians who take part simply be shamed into stopping?

The ACLU has defended Communists, Nazis, African Americans, the right to abortion, the right to burn flags, and the right to burn crosses. Some people see those actions as principled and consistent. Others don't. That disagreement represents a pretty fundamental difference in worldview - that between liberal and illiberal.

Liberal ideals have seen us make tremendous progress. Abandoning those ideals is, in my opinion, the surest way to put that progress in jeopardy.

Laws? Liberal ideals? What in the world are you talking about?

Just be a welcoming, respectful person and make a point to educate those who aren't when you see those moments instead of ignoring them or awkwardly laughing them off. It's not really a difficult concept. If you need more laws and specific groups named for you to figure it out, I don't have a lot of hope for you.

[Mister Yamoto]

Originally Posted by N-E-B

There's a difference between erasing the past and destroying monuments to dickheads.

Take the statue down.

Why? What good is that going to do for anyone, anywhere?

It's textbook modern day dogoodering. Making a difference without changing anything at all. Who the hell cares about stuff that happened 200 years ago? All it does is keep people from dealing with problems that are happening right now.

Slavery is alive and well RIGHT NOW. (I know it's a downer and nobody likes to talk about it) All the clothes in my closet, my computer, my chia pets. All likely made by slaves. Hopefully 200 years from now some dogooders will tear down my tombstone. That will really show me.

And besides, I don't think this is really about the statues for these KKK/Nazi guys. Give them their statues. They wouldn't know what to do next. It's all about starting a war for them. Don't give them one.

[The Familia]

We might as well remove the pyramids and sphinx in Egypt if we are going to start taking things down. I mean, Egyptian pharoes believed in slavery and used 1000's upon 1000's of them to build their monuments. Those pyramids are symbols of oppression.

Might as well burn down Rome as every monument left from the Roman Empire was built on the back of slaves and conquered cultures. Can't have those left standing.

This statue removal is going to open a massive can of worms. Where do we draw the line?

[The Familia]

Double post

[Caged Great]

Originally Posted by The Familia

We might as well remove the pyramids and sphinx in Egypt if we are going to start taking things down. I mean, Egyptian pharoes believed in slavery and used 1000's upon 1000's of them to build their monuments. Those pyramids are symbols of oppression.

Might as well burn down Rome as every monument left from the Roman Empire was built on the back of slaves and conquered cultures. Can't have those left standing.

This statue removal is going to open a massive can of worms. Where do we draw the line?

Nobody is saying to outright destroy the statues. Just put them in a museum somewhere. It would also be different if those statues were hundreds or thousands of years old. They have been around roughly 50 or so years in a lot of cases. That's nothing.

[GirlySports]

The great Wall of China has corpses in it. Less bricks!