Harper announces plans to crack down on drug-impaired drivers!!

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by Shazam

If weed were legal, it would get stolen, and sold illegally.

Seems like a poor reason not to legalize it. Because people will steal it? How does its legal/illegal status prevent/cause people to steal it?

People steal and sell cigarettes/alcohol, the legal/illegal status of the substance (or anything, you were saying you could get your hands on a stolen fridge) doesn't seem to matter.

Also, if its legal and someone steals it, you can report it to the police. If its illegal and someone steals it, you can't really tell the cops, you might be more obliged to take the matter into your own hands (and cause violence).

[Shazam]

I'm not saying it's a reason for anything. I'm simply stating that is what would happen.

You want to know my POV? I think people who want to legalize pot think that it would somehow make society "better" - less hypocritical, more freedom, whatever.

I don't think it's going to make a shred of difference. Society will simply have to deal with a new set of issues instead of the issues they have now with ganja. Those issues will cost money.

Again, I believe it is the illegal growers that are the main driving force behind the legalization of ganja, because they believe they will gain immensely from legalization. I believe the big corps will come in and squish the small growers into oblivion.

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by Shazam

I'm not saying it's a reason for anything. I'm simply stating that is what would happen.

You want to know my POV? I think people who want to legalize pot think that it would somehow make society "better" - less hypocritical, more freedom, whatever.

I don't think they think it will make 'society better'... But if society has deemed smoking cigarettes and drinking alcohol as acceptable and legal, then there seems no reason to not allow the same for marijuana, especially since its already so widespread and available.

I don't think it's going to make a shred of difference. Society will simply have to deal with a new set of issues instead of the issues they have now with ganja. Those issues will cost money.

What would be an example of these new issues?

Again, I believe it is the illegal growers that are the main driving force behind the legalization of ganja, because they believe they will gain immensely from legalization. I believe the big corps will come in and squish the small growers into oblivion.

I doubt the small BC weed growers are in favour of legalization at all, it would destroy their niche market. You're right, big corporations would come in and take all the business, they might even grow better weed for cheaper cost. If they can't, then the small growers will remain viable businesses. I don't really care one way or the other, but at least then the government will be taking their cut (whether or not we think more taxes = good or bad) from the billions in sales already being made. I don't think it really matters whether large corporations or small landowners grow it and sell it... maybe both will.

[CaptainCrunch]

I don't care one way or another about legalizing pot from a societal standpoint. If people want to damage thier brains, to me its thier decision, but the idea thats popping out about smokers having to pay for thier healthcare has to be equally relevant for Pot Smokers.

I'm horrified by the idea of people buying a package of dope smokes, and driving around while lighting it up. I'm worried about the idea of people who can now by pot in a liquor store lighting up a dozen or more pot cigarrettes in a day instead of thier usual one or two.

Pot is still relatively new in terms of being the subject of intense study, how sure are we that extended use is not dangerous or dosen't cause long lasting brain damage, or dosen't cause genetic faults in offspring.

One thing is for sure, eventually this stuff is going to become legal, so the question is one of keeping it out of the hands of anyone under the age of 18. The other question is how to handle the issue of secondary smoking and how it effects a person being charged with driving under the influence.

[Shazam]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

I don't think they think it will make 'society better'... But if society has deemed smoking cigarettes and drinking alcohol as acceptable and legal, then there seems no reason to not allow the same for marijuana, especially since its already so widespread and available.

Well, heroin and cocaine are widespread and available. Do we make those legal too? Heck, everything is widespread and available these days.

What would be an example of these new issues?

A lot of the stuff we already talked:

- Violence from widespread ganja use.
- The beauracracy of regulation.
- And as a parent, it's a lot easier to guide a child away from drugs if you tell them it's illegal.

We've got enough tax money being spent on smokers, on drunk driving, on drunks fighting, etc. Now we're going to need even more money than what's being spent now on ganja use. Yay.

I doubt the small BC weed growers are in favour of legalization at all, it would destroy their niche market. You're right, big corporations would come in and take all the business, they might even grow better weed for cheaper cost. If they can't, then the small growers will remain viable businesses. I don't really care one way or the other, but at least then the government will be taking their cut (whether or not we think more taxes = good or bad) from the billions in sales already being made. I don't think it really matters whether large corporations or small landowners grow it and sell it... maybe both will.

I did watch a program where a bunch of weed growers held a rally wanting it legalized. The only thing I saw were a bunch of dollar signs in their eyes. These aren't the sharpest tools in the shed.

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

Society wouldn't be adding another vice. I'm not sure if you've noticed, but people are already smoking pot right now! I read somewhere (can't find the source atm, sorry) that something like 30% of adult Canadians have used marijuana at least once.

Yes but if legalised the amount of regular users could go up as high as thirty percent.

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by Shazam

Well, heroin and cocaine are widespread and available. Do we make those legal too? Heck, everything is widespread and available these days.

No, because the effects of heroin and cocaine are not similar to those of the already legal drugs cigarettes and liquor. The fact that people already do marijuana is not the main justification for legalizing it, its more the fact that we're allowing very similar drugs but disallowing marijuana, for no apparent reason.

A lot of the stuff we already talked:

- Violence from widespread ganja use.

I still don't get why violence would occur. Weed is already widespread, how does legalizing it incite more violence?

- The beauracracy of regulation.
- And as a parent, it's a lot easier to guide a child away from drugs if you tell them it's illegal.

Frankly I'd be more worried about my kid drinking than doing weed, but I guess thats each parent's call. My personal belief is that drinking is downright 'worse' than marijuana considering its effects, and I've done a whole lot of both.

We've got enough tax money being spent on smokers, on drunk driving, on drunks fighting, etc. Now we're going to need even more money than what's being spent now on ganja use. Yay.

Right... and we're getting no tax dollars from the billions in sales right now. None. People are smoking it, some might even get sick from long-term use of it, but no tax dollars are being brought in to subsidize treatment (unlike liquor/cigarettes). If we're worried about the increased cost of marijuana consumption, shouldn't we be doing something about it like taxing it?

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I don't care one way or another about legalizing pot from a societal standpoint. If people want to damage thier brains, to me its thier decision, but the idea thats popping out about smokers having to pay for thier healthcare has to be equally relevant for Pot Smokers.

Absolutely, cigarettes smokers should pay high taxes on smokes to finance their eventual health issues, just like liquor users and marijuana users. Unless society/the law wants to decide all of these things should be illegal. I don't really care, as long as all 3 are classified the same, more or less.

I'm horrified by the idea of people buying a package of dope smokes, and driving around while lighting it up. I'm worried about the idea of people who can now by pot in a liquor store lighting up a dozen or more pot cigarrettes in a day instead of thier usual one or two.

The same people that do one or two a day now could easily do a whole lot more if they wanted. If they already have access to it, its availability in stores shouldn't make a difference, they already have the option to smoke as much/little as they like.

Pot is still relatively new in terms of being the subject of intense study, how sure are we that extended use is not dangerous or dosen't cause long lasting brain damage, or dosen't cause genetic faults in offspring.

Maybe it does... but I don't think the effects will turn out to be any worse than liquor/cigarettes.

One thing is for sure, eventually this stuff is going to become legal, so the question is one of keeping it out of the hands of anyone under the age of 18. The other question is how to handle the issue of secondary smoking and how it effects a person being charged with driving under the influence.

Sure, good points.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Shazam

- Violence from widespread ganja use.

Can you be more specific? How legalized marijuana will increase any kind of violence is beyond me. The only violence currently connected to marijuana is in the illegal trade. If there is no more illegal trade isn't it just common sense that the whole racket will dry up?

Originally Posted by Shazam

I did watch a program where a bunch of weed growers held a rally wanting it legalized. The only thing I saw were a bunch of dollar signs in their eyes. These aren't the sharpest tools in the shed.

I didn't see the show but I'm pretty confident it wasn't the criminals and the bikers and the dealers at that rally. Those people don't really like to advertise. They sure as hell don't go on TV.

And again, common sense dictates that the people that are really profiting from the sale of weed don't want it to be legalized. Why would they?The mob took a beating when prohibition was repealed.

Anyhow, I think people overestimate the effect legalization would have. Who is actually scared of the law as it is? Everyone who wants to smoke it already does. Those that don't smoke it now aren't going to start toking up because it suddenly it's legal. For all intents and purpose it is legal if all you want to do is smoke the stuff.

[CaptainCrunch]

The big loop hole in the whole legalization of pot argument is that any kind of big corporation or manufacturer that makes this stuff will be subject to gov't regulation, in other words it probably won't be anywhere near as potent as the stuff grown now. So in my mind there will always be a illegal market as long as you have a user that wants a higher high or a better buzz. The dealers and illegal growers will be stumbling for a way to make thier product more addictive then the legally available stuff. Hence there will be no quality control, there will be drug mixings (Pot with PCP was a big one in my day), there will always be an illegal trade. But there will also be a huge increase in risk for the stores that want to carry the stuff as well.

Its just too profitable of a business for dealers and illegal growers to give up easily.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

The big loop hole in the whole legalization of pot argument is that any kind of big corporation or manufacturer that makes this stuff will be subject to gov't regulation, in other words it probably won't be anywhere near as potent as the stuff grown now. So in my mind there will always be a illegal market as long as you have a user that wants a higher high or a better buzz. The dealers and illegal growers will be stumbling for a way to make thier product more addictive then the legally available stuff. Hence there will be no quality control, there will be drug mixings (Pot with PCP was a big one in my day), there will always be an illegal trade. But there will also be a huge increase in risk for the stores that want to carry the stuff as well.

Its just too profitable of a business for dealers and illegal growers to give up easily.

The same thing could be said about pretty much anything though, couldn't it?

If the manufacturers want to make a profit they'll have to supply a product that the consumer actually wants.

Yeah if they are churning out dirtweed then people will look elsewhere for sure, but why would they bother if they aren't going to make a decent product?

It's like someone starting a business that makes 5% whisky. What's the point? We know already they wouldn't make money.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

Its hypocritical of society/the law to allow one drug (alcohol/cigarettes) and not another drug whose side effects are pretty much similar/identical. Either outlaw all 3 or legalize all 3, its hypocracy to have some legal and some not.


Thats the risk stoners will have to take (and take all the time, right now... BC grows and sells $6 billion worth of marijuana a year).


They're livin' large!

Not really, Alcohol/marijuana have absolutely nothing to do with eachother.

If it wasn't for the fact Alcohol was completely ingrained in society by the time prohabition came around, it would have been regulated, life would go on, and society would be a better place.

2 wrongs don't make a right.

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

Not really, Alcohol/marijuana have absolutely nothing to do with eachother.

The argument is the effects of each on the user are similar. I'm not saying marijuana and alcohol are made of the same thing or anything. 'Nothing to do with each other' I think is a stretch, they're both drugs taken for similar purposes.

If it wasn't for the fact Alcohol was completely ingrained in society by the time prohabition came around, it would have been regulated, life would go on, and society would be a better place.

I'd suggest that marijuana is 'completely ingrained' in society right now. Billions of $$ worth is being sold all over North America, people can get it pretty much anywhere. Its illegal, but TONS of Canadians use it. The main difference I see is the legal status. I'm no big fan of either when it comes to the negative effects on people, but to tell others that alcohol/marijuana consumption is wrong because of the negative effects, well, the same could be said with sugar, tobacco, high-cholesterol foods, staying out in the sun too long, skiing off the trail, etc.

2 wrongs don't make a right.

Neither does 1 wrong. If liquor is wrong, we should make it illegal. I don't think liquor or marijuana are 'wrong', in a free society people are allowed to do what they want with their time/money, regardless of the moral/value judgements of others. The Canadian people reaping zero tax dollars from the enterprise is 'wrong'.

[CaramonLS]

Can you get 2nd hand donut?

That is also another issue. If I walk outside to the new smokers/pot area and happen to walk past a couple of stoners, how much can I inhale which will affect my reaction time even for a split second? Can I sue the pot smoker for unknowningly walking into an area he was in, which caused a drop in my short term reaction time which might have injured someone in an accident?

This is a real question, which would be brought up within years of legalization. Then what does it become? Maybe they'll say I should wait 10 minutes before driving if I walk near someone with pot.

My point is pot is one of those things which comes dangerously close and does create many socitial problems which significantly infringe on the rights of others. Being fat, standing in the sun too long doesn't.

Neither does 1 wrong. If liquor is wrong, we should make it illegal. I don't think liquor or marijuana are 'wrong', in a free society people are allowed to do what they want with their time/money, regardless of the moral/value judgements of others. The Canadian people reaping zero tax dollars from the enterprise is 'wrong'.

Nope, but it would be too hard to enforce. Remember? It was tried and failed. Personally? If another drop of liquor was never consumed it would be one of the best things to happen.

At least now, the pot smokers are confined and somewhat regulated in their behavior, both in terms of access and availablity and social acceptance. If it is legalized, more people will be succuming to the ill effects of the drug, which can lead to more socital problems.

[browna]

Good move by Harper to get this issue out there.
Enforcement could be an issue in 2006, but at least it gets the ball rolling and more people aware...who knows..in 2010, there may be a way to properly test for drug impairment.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

That is also another issue. If I walk outside to the new smokers/pot area and happen to walk past a couple of stoners, how much can I inhale which will affect my reaction time even for a split second? Can I sue the pot smoker for unknowningly walking into an area he was in, which caused a drop in my short term reaction time which might have injured someone in an accident?

This is a real question, which would be brought up within years of legalization. Then what does it become? Maybe they'll say I should wait 10 minutes before driving if I walk near someone with pot.

Oh come on now, this is verging on hysteria.

5 minutes on 17th Avenue inhaling all that car exhaust is worse for you than walking past some dudes smoking a joint could ever be.

Multiple choice question: Would you rather spend an hour in a garage with
a: some guy some guy smoking a water bong
b: a running car

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Oh come on now, this is verging on hysteria.

5 minutes on 17th Avenue inhaling all that car exhaust is worse for you than walking past some dudes smoking a joint could ever be.

Multiple choice question: Would you rather spend an hour in a garage with
a: some guy some guy smoking a water bong
b: a running car

Does it affect me in any adverse way. Short or long term?

Yes or no.

[greyshep]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

The same people that do one or two a day now could easily do a whole lot more if they wanted. If they already have access to it, its availability in stores shouldn't make a difference, they already have the option to smoke as much/little as they like.

You really seem to believe there will be no net increase in these issues should marijuana be legalized. Do you honestly believe that usage will not increase?

Once the illegal stigma is removed it brings it into a much wider potential user base. Believe it or not there is a large number of people that dont get into these things as they really dont feel like breaking the law.

If you think usage is already at its max you are fooling yourself.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Oh come on now, this is verging on hysteria.

5 minutes on 17th Avenue inhaling all that car exhaust is worse for you than walking past some dudes smoking a joint could ever be.

Multiple choice question: Would you rather spend an hour in a garage with
a: some guy some guy smoking a water bong
b: a running car

While car exhaust is bad for your lungs, and in an enclose space can cause some impairment. Dope smoke even in fairly minimal qualities can cause impairment to your judgement.

So personally I would prefer not to inhale exhaust. I'd be more worried about somebody on the road who's been exposed to pot smoke and is behind the wheel of a 2000 pound car.
One can kill me in a second, the other will probably take years to kill me.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

Does it affect me in any adverse way. Short or long term?

Yes or no.

Yes to both. I'm no doctor, but spending a few minutes in a garage with a running car can potentially kill you so I'm sure it has an immediate negative impact on your health. Hell, you can get lightheaded walking around in a busy parkade.