Omar F*****G Khadr is getting $10.5 milion

[belsarius]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

Serious question: what is the presumed outcome for Khadr if he had not thrown the grenade?

I don't know the full details of the operation, but why was he left alive when nearly everyone around him was killed? Did he have any reason to believe the incoming soldiers would not have finished the job?

Pure luck he survived. He was shot twice in the back. When OC-1 checked on him after he was still alive so they kept him alive. I've heard that they were going to kill him but the Delta forces thought he might have intel and wanted him patched up and brought back. I don't know how true that part is, but he was definitely shot like the rest of them.

[powderjunkie]

^ So to those critical of Khadr, what action could he have made differently in his life up to the point of him pulling the pin on a grenade?

Being shot twice and surrounded by dead guys* (*a reasonable chance that they are the closest thing to 'family' he ever really knew in the few years that he had been a teenager), is it not unreasonable to expect that the incoming combatants are about to finish you off? Whether it's out of vengeance or self-defence, throwing a grenade doesn't seem the least bit unreasonable to me at that point...


Again, I don't think he should get a dime. The government could certainly help him with housing, free education, food, etc. as he establishes his life, though.

[RougeUnderoos]

Hang on. First you said this:

Basically its still defined as such and why people that run around disguised as civilians, shooting up other people in the simplest terms aren't protected by the Geneva Convention.

and then this:

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Speer was wearing Afghan garb, however he was with members who were clearly identifiable (going off of memory here), also when he entered the area he was with Delta Force members in uniform.

So he was an "unlawful combatant" too?

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Hang on. First you said this:



and then this:



So he was an "unlawful combatant" too?

He was with a identifiable group of special forces troops.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

^ So to those critical of Khadr, what action could he have made differently in his life up to the point of him pulling the pin on a grenade?

Being shot twice and surrounded by dead guys* (*a reasonable chance that they are the closest thing to 'family' he ever really knew in the few years that he had been a teenager), is it not unreasonable to expect that the incoming combatants are about to finish you off? Whether it's out of vengeance or self-defence, throwing a grenade doesn't seem the least bit unreasonable to me at that point...


Again, I don't think he should get a dime. The government could certainly help him with housing, free education, food, etc. as he establishes his life, though.

nm

[Flamenspiel]

Unfortunately, no matter which way you look at it, this is embarrassing for Canada. Great column in the Montreal gazette today on this topic:

http://www.montrealgazette.com/opini...675/story.html

"If nothing else, at the very least, it’s a brilliant victory for the Taliban, al-Qaida, ISIL and all the other extremists: A young jihadist is now a hero in Canada for killing an infidel – and look, he got a big payday and an apology to boot.

What’s next: Do we apologize to the Germans for winning what another friend calls “those two memorable misunderstandings?”

“We did win both. Tore down the fabric of their society, twice. Killed a lot of their young men. Became an occupying force. Really, really sorry about that.”

We can sign it as we always do, “Love, Canada.”"

[belsarius]

Originally Posted by Flamenspiel

Unfortunately, no matter which way you look at it, this is embarrassing for Canada. Great column in the Montreal gazette today on this topic:

http://www.montrealgazette.com/opini...675/story.html

"If nothing else, at the very least, it’s a brilliant victory for the Taliban, al-Qaida, ISIL and all the other extremists: A young jihadist is now a hero in Canada for killing an infidel – and look, he got a big payday and an apology to boot.

What’s next: Do we apologize to the Germans for winning what another friend calls “those two memorable misunderstandings?”

“We did win both. Tore down the fabric of their society, twice. Killed a lot of their young men. Became an occupying force. Really, really sorry about that.”

We can sign it as we always do, “Love, Canada.”"

Sigh, more false equivalencies. I guess anyone, no matter how ignorant to the situation, can write an opinion piece that post media will publish.

[OMG!WTF!]

Originally Posted by Flamenspiel

Unfortunately, no matter which way you look at it, this is embarrassing for Canada. Great column in the Montreal gazette today on this topic:

http://www.montrealgazette.com/opini...675/story.html

"If nothing else, at the very least, it’s a brilliant victory for the Taliban, al-Qaida, ISIL and all the other extremists: A young jihadist is now a hero in Canada for killing an infidel – and look, he got a big payday and an apology to boot.

What’s next: Do we apologize to the Germans for winning what another friend calls “those two memorable misunderstandings?”

“We did win both. Tore down the fabric of their society, twice. Killed a lot of their young men. Became an occupying force. Really, really sorry about that.”

We can sign it as we always do, “Love, Canada.

I hate that article. What an stupid opinion...

Why isn’t that enough? Why can’t Khadr be content with what he has been given, and the rest of us with knowing that if he wasn’t always treated perfectly, he now enjoys freedom?

Yeah. He got released from jail after being denied legal counsel and tortured. Why can't he just STFU? Blatchford is a total idiot.

[Flamenspiel]

I think you still have to have a sense of humor about it, she uses exaggeration and sarcasm to ridicule the government. Regardless, she got the facts right and it is an embarrassment for Canada.

[Zarley]

Justin Trudeau, eloquent and cogent communicator:

Originally Posted by PM

“There is a judicial process under way that has been under way for a number of years now and we are anticipating, like I think a number of people are, that that judicial process is coming to its conclusion.”

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...ticle35540496/

[OMG!WTF!]

Originally Posted by Flamenspiel

I think you still have to have a sense of humor about it, she uses exaggeration and sarcasm to ridicule the government. Regardless, she got the facts right and it is an embarrassment for Canada.

What's the embarrassing part?

[Ducay]

Originally Posted by OMG!WTF!

What's the embarrassing part?

You know when newspapers the world round, left and right, think its an insane decision, you probably got something wrong (albeit following the justice system we must live and die by). Absolutely absurd.

Originally Posted by Makarov

Hopefully we don't all take the bait and let this post derail the discussion in this thread.

I'd say if he is granted no rights under the Geneva convention as that type of combatant, he has probably forfeited any other rights due to him. Had the US troops gotten Khadr first in the firefight no tears would be shed, and the world would be a better (and cheaper for US and Canadian taxpayers) place. Instead, on the good side we have a widower and the terrorist becoming a millionaire.

[OMG!WTF!]

Originally Posted by Ducay

You know when newspapers the world round, left and right, think its an insane decision, you probably got something wrong (albeit following the justice system we must live and die by).

Actually that's when I know we've done something right. You realize this kid didn't hop on a plane and fly to Afghanistan on his own to join the jihad right? His parents brought him there when he was 13. We grant all kinds of special legal protection to minors simply because they aren't operating under the same autonomy adults are. Go have sex with a fifteen year old and see what happens. Yet people like you think the kid is patently evil. It's so stupid. Do you think he's a threat now? Do you think he would have done what he did had he not been raised by awful people? Do you think we should torture other fifteen year old killers? Maybe that 12 year old girl who killed her parents in Lethbridge should have been denied due process and legal counsel and sleep. That'd show her.

The only embarrassing part of this is that we got sucked in by the Americans and their stupid war on nothing. We didn't stand up for our own legal right and we got caught. That's embarrassing. Listening to smart people get this wrong is also embarrassing.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

He was with a identifiable group of special forces troops.

So because the other guys weren't also in disguise, he's good?

[the_only_turek_fan]

Originally Posted by Maritime Q-Scout

This is a complicated case.

First we must look at what happened to trigger these events.

A Canadian child whose father was a terrorist was moved from Canada to Pakistan when he was 9; then to Afghanistan when he was 10.

At 15 he was involved in an incident where he allegedly threw a grenade that killed a US solider.

Let's stop there for a moment.

What should then be done? How should the child, not yet of an age to drive a car, be dealt with?

If on Canadian soil, he would have been arrested and tried for murder. Likely, sentenced as a juvenile, and likely a psychiatric evaluation to determine state of mind, and mental competence given the undue influence of the terrorist cell/parent around him.

I think we can all agree, in a civilized society, that is a reasonable outcome, and we let the courts take it as they may.


Now what did happen?

The 15 year old who has been now living among Al-Qaeda for five years, was captured by the US and he was flown to Guantanamo Bay where he was then tortured, denied the ability to go to the washroom, waterboarded, threatened with rape, for ten years. No trial, no due process, no innocent until proven guilty, no security of self, no fair treatment, no dignity. To put it in perspective Charles Manson, Zacarias Moussaoui, Dzhokhar Tsarnaev, Thomas Silverstein, Ted Bundy, and John Wayne Gacy, were all/are all treated better than this 15 year old was. They all had due process, they all are torture free, they all get their security of person while in prison. However, this 15 year old, who was alleged to have committed a crime lower on the scale than the above was tortured without any due process.

I think it's fair to say that this 15 year old should have been treated, at minimum, the same as Charles Manson, Zacarias Moussaoui, Dzhokhar Tsarnaev, Thomas Silverstein, Ted Bundy, and John Wayne Gacy. I think we can all agree on that.


But he was at Guantanamo, that a US base. Yes it is. However, Canada sent agents to Guantanamo Bay to see this 15 year old Canadian. Rather than provide aid, legal counsel, and ensure a torture free environment, which was their job, they aided the US, and left this 15 year old as he was.

Can you imagine being arrested by mall security, then tortured, waterboarded, denied the ability to use the bathroom, and threatened with rape, only to have the police come in. You'd think they'd be there to help you, as this unlawful confinement and torture is clearly illegal. Only to have the police then walk out on you and allow this torture to continue for years. Not hours, not days, YEARS.

I think you'd hold the police department with some level of culpability. I know I would.


That's basically where we're at with the Omar Khadr case. A 15 year old was tortured for a decade, and when the people who were supposed to ensure that his human rights and dignity were not violated, arrived, they turned their back.


Is Khadr innocent? I don't think so. Does that give the US the right to, and allow Canada to aid, torturing him? No.

Have we treated any other alleged criminal like this? No. Paul Bernardo, Allan Legere, Clifford Olson, Robert Pickton, Russell Williams, all treated fairly under the law; but this 15 year old who allegedly killed one; tortured for a decade.

Don't get me wrong, this doesn't excuse the alleged act. And without reading any evidence, I do think he committed it. But due process needs to happen. Hell it's what Christopher Speer was fighting for.


At the end of the day, I don't support torturing people... furthermore I don't support torturing kids.

Let's deal with both of these issues, and deal with them separately. Omar Khadr can be a piece of sh*t, but that doesn't excuse the Government of Canada's actions. That should be looked at independent of his alleged crime; just as his alleged crime should be looked at independent of his torture.

This is a pretty persuasive post. Thanks.

One question, and something I find really offensive. If he is guilty of these crimes, why did he only serve 8 years? That is what bothers me.

Why did Harper even accept him back?

I agree torture is bad and should not happen even to despicable people like Kadr. But he has committed a crime that people on the other side of the debate including me feel he didn't serve enough time for.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

nm

Com'n, I'd really like someone to answer my question!


to those critical of Khadr, what action could he have made differently in his life up to the point of him pulling the pin on a grenade?

[midniteowl]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

A lot of that article is predicated on Kadr having protection under the Geneva Convention. He was an unlawful combatant.

Look, I'm glad that Kadr has seemingly changed, though he still visits that disgusting family of his.

I would expect that he won't have that money for long, the widow of the man that Kadr murdered, will probably file a lawsuit against him.

And I hope the widow win the lawsuit.

[Slava]

Just wondering what the alternative is here. Like say we (the government) doesn't settle. We just battle with the lawyers he has for however long and run the risk of paying more down the road?

I don't love the idea of paying this guy, but if it appears inevitable, let's just get it over with.

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by the_only_turek_fan

This is a pretty persuasive post. Thanks.

One question, and something I find really offensive. If he is guilty of these crimes, why did he only serve 8 years? That is what bothers me.

Why did Harper even accept him back?

I agree torture is bad and should not happen even to despicable people like Kadr. But he has committed a crime that people on the other side of the debate including me feel he didn't serve enough time for.

Honest question: morally speaking, if Khadr was wearing a Taliban military uniform and reported to a slightly more resilient and better organized Taliban "state", would that suddenly transform Khadr's actions from "criminal" and "despicable" to non-criminal and non-despicable?

I'm struggling mightily with that idea.

EDIT:

To look at it another way: how can it be right that American soldiers were legally entitled to kill militants like Khadr, but if militants like Khadr fight back and kill an American soldier they are guilty of a serious crime?

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by Slava

Just wondering what the alternative is here. Like say we (the government) doesn't settle. We just battle with the lawyers he has for however long and run the risk of paying more down the road?

I don't love the idea of paying this guy, but if it appears inevitable, let's just get it over with.

That is likely it in a nutshell. There may some other considerations (like avoiding embarrassing evidence being adduced at trial) but that the risk of liability is generally the primary reason that parties settle.