2016-17 Toronto Raptors and General NBA Thread

[bluejays]

I don't think I've ever said this about an executive, but for the Raptors, losing Ujiri would be a massive blow. He has the leagues respect, he's a highly intelligent individual and has the respect of those within the organization. He's just a solid human being by all accounts and there is NOBODY in the league that can replace him. This organization would be in a lot of trouble to build respect again should he leave. All they can do is make a major pitch and make some very generous donations to his charity. While NY may not be able to afford him at a premium with Phil's contract still on the books, the Raps cannot afford to lose him under any circumstances.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

You don't burn a 55 win, young team to the ground. The name of the game is competing to win and there is no way the Rockets were going to start tanking. That's not a realistic suggestion. Yeah they had a horrible playoff loss. So now they're doing their best to shore up the team and take some pressure off Harden who clearly was awful in game 6, but more importantly end of game 5. I won't be surprised at all to see them add George or Carmelo. Morey is not exactly afraid to make moves. Beating the Warriors is of course a long shot but tanking gets you no closer and yields no benefit.

Not being afraid to make moves isn't the same as being unable to make moves. Harden is the only player they have who can net George in a straight up, and in a three-way you can't get much for any of their guys, and draft picks aren't worth it since they'll be picks in the 20s. Morey would have blown all of the Celtics picks and assets (and maybe more) by now getting a big three (or four). But they have nothing to get George, maybe Melo as a salary dump, but that makes them even worse defensively. I doubt he gets bought out now, if anything the Knicks will look to add players with Phil gone. So as is I still don't think they can't be considered better than the Warriors, Cavs or Spurs, but the gap between the Warriors and the other two is immense, and Houston is still behind that.

[Senator Clay Davis]

As far as Masai goes I think he probably stays, the Knicks still have lots of problems and Dolan is still Dolan. Sure they can offer $20 million a year or more, but the owner is still not good. MLSE has actually given him basically total control, so it's always hard to leave it.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

Not being afraid to make moves isn't the same as being unable to make moves. Harden is the only player they have who can net George in a straight up, and in a three-way you can't get much for any of their guys, and draft picks aren't worth it since they'll be picks in the 20s. Morey would have blown all of the Celtics picks and assets (and maybe more) by now getting a big three (or four). But they have nothing to get George, maybe Melo as a salary dump, but that makes them even worse defensively. I doubt he gets bought out now, if anything the Knicks will look to add players with Phil gone. So as is I still don't think they can't be considered better than the Warriors, Cavs or Spurs, but the gap between the Warriors and the other two is immense, and Houston is still behind that.

Well they are closer today than they were yesterday. Let's see what else they can do this offseason but for now, they got CP3 for a song. Sure beats tanking.

If the Flames picked up one of the biggest stars in the league at a discount because he wanted to play here, this place would be going nuts even if it didn't make them favorites for the Cup.

[Senator Clay Davis]

But this isn't the NHL, we all know how the NBA works and given how the NBA works the Rockets need to add a third wheel here or this trade makes them a more intriguing team to watch in the regular season, but one that is still far away from having a real chance to maybe, possibly beat the Warriors. The Rockets are still like everyone else in the NBA right now, hoping for a Curry-Durant ACL tear....and even in that situation, they're still at best the third best team left. When you acquire a superstar, you'd kinda like to be in a much better spot than "hopefully someone from the other team gets hurt, then we still aren't the big favs, just a team with a chance".

Sam Hinkie got ripped for "The Process", and the NBA effectively removed him as GM. Yet in hindsight, he was clearly a man ahead of his time. Morey should be commended for his willingness to risk it, the problem is if it backfires when the Warriors era is over, the Rockets could be in even worse shape than the Warriors going forward, at a time they should be trying to peak to win a ring. I think going with The Process was the right move for the Rockets here, bolder and even riskier, but more likely to work. But without another star coming, this is a cosmetic move with no real impact. Worst part is even adding another star, unless it's LeBron, guarantees nothing at all. Just how it is right now, the Warriors are that much further ahead than everyone else.

Oh and just for fun, Chris Paul and James Harden are a combined 4-24 in their last 28 games against the Warriors. So if nothing else they are both very much used to losing to the Warriors.

[bluejays]

While I do believe you're right, I don't think it's nearly as drastic as you make it out to be. They now have two stars. Not nearly enough to come close to that elite few, but they'll be pretty damn solid. Sometimes ownership wants results and the team to earn some playoff money. When they got CP3 for a song, it's hard to not make that move from a basketball or business perspective. Frankly, I'm shocked other teams didn't offer more.

On a side note, I was reading an article that the Raps were looking "unload" Valanciunas' contract during the draft. I seen that they were willing to trade him, but I didn't know that his contract was bad enough that you'd want to "unload" it. Anyway, I'm really curious what teh Raps do this offseason. The easy path would be to keep Lowry as there isn't anyone else out there but where do you go? This seems like a really big year as they're at a crossroads where to go from here.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by fleury

While I do believe you're right, I don't think it's nearly as drastic as you make it out to be. They now have two stars. Not nearly enough to come close to that elite few, but they'll be pretty damn solid. Sometimes ownership wants results and the team to earn some playoff money. When they got CP3 for a song, it's hard to not make that move from a basketball or business perspective. Frankly, I'm shocked other teams didn't offer more.

.

This. You take a 55 win team and you make them better. As good as the Warriors yet? Nope but they get closer and Morey will certainly keep trying.

[Love]

Originally Posted by fleury

While I do believe you're right, I don't think it's nearly as drastic as you make it out to be. They now have two stars. Not nearly enough to come close to that elite few, but they'll be pretty damn solid. Sometimes ownership wants results and the team to earn some playoff money. When they got CP3 for a song, it's hard to not make that move from a basketball or business perspective. Frankly, I'm shocked other teams didn't offer more.

And, on top of that, having star power attracts more star players. They now, to the rest of the league seem closer to the elite of the NBA than they did before the trade. There's rumblings that they dumped so many players to have the money to bring in Paul George, and if they were to do so, that Lebron would sign there in 2018.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

This. You take a 55 win team and you make them better. As good as the Warriors yet? Nope but they get closer and Morey will certainly keep trying.

This is how most Raptor fans felt 365 days ago. And the Raptors got further than the Rockets did. 365 days later, we wish they would have blown it up instead. And Masai is clearly better than Morey too so...Without another star the Rockets are pretty much Raptors West, hoping for a major injury to clear the path....but even then, there's other teams who can get there too. Always better to blow it up too soon than too late.

Also most Warriors fans were thrilled to see Chris Paul end up in Houston, because they were worried he'd end up in San Antonio. Spurs can be a real threat. Houston? Not when your game plan to beat the Warriors is to outscore them, because that's pretty much impossible.

[d_phaneuf]

How is Masai clearly better than Morey?

Morey is also one of the analytical drivers behind 3s being such an important part of offense that most teams in the league play now

I'm not saying either way, but Morey is extremely well thought of around the league

Also just giving up is not a strategy, the Rockets now have arguably the best back court in the league, and Paul's defense is a strength so it's not necessarily just trying to outscore them.

comparing the Rockets to the 76ers makes no sense, the Rockets have a top 5 player, now arguably two top 10 players, and the ability to make some more moves. The 76ers were bad and just bottomed out, and it didnt work the first 3 years because of bad picks, and even now we don't know if its going to work

Embiid has a huge injury history, Simmons missed his entire rookie season with injuries and doesn't have a jump shot, and Fultz has never played an NBA game nor a meaningful NCAA one. That team is not a guarantee to be elite

[Senator Clay Davis]

Paul George to....OKC. Because we all saw that coming right? And another win for the Warriors, Thunder are better but still can't challenge the Warriors. George on the Cavs would have given them a shot. But in the end Thunder ultimately turned Ibaka as a FA this year into George as a FA next year. Ibaka was dealt for Oladipo and the pick that became Sabonis, they are all Indiana got for George which seems rather low, or Boston is really that cheap.

[Da_Chief]

What other stars are left? Too bad Blake re-signed with Clippers.

Minny, Thunder, Rockets, Pelicans, Wizards, Spurs all still need another guy.


Carmelo, Hayward, DeRozen, Lilliard, McCollum...NBA needs to get rid of 14 teams and distribute talent to the top 16..top 8 make the playoffs. Better tourney.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Originally Posted by d_phaneuf

How is Masai clearly better than Morey?

Morey is also one of the analytical drivers behind 3s being such an important part of offense that most teams in the league play now

I'm not saying either way, but Morey is extremely well thought of around the league

Also just giving up is not a strategy, the Rockets now have arguably the best back court in the league, and Paul's defense is a strength so it's not necessarily just trying to outscore them.

comparing the Rockets to the 76ers makes no sense, the Rockets have a top 5 player, now arguably two top 10 players, and the ability to make some more moves. The 76ers were bad and just bottomed out, and it didnt work the first 3 years because of bad picks, and even now we don't know if its going to work

Embiid has a huge injury history, Simmons missed his entire rookie season with injuries and doesn't have a jump shot, and Fultz has never played an NBA game nor a meaningful NCAA one. That team is not a guarantee to be elite

Well seeing as George got traded for not much, it's a good to remember Masai pulled off an astonishing haul for Carmelo in the exact same situation as Indiana found itself in. Then of course he pulled off the Italian Job with getting a top 10 pick for Bargniani and his terrible contract. Great drafter too outside Bruno. Masai is behind only RC Buford and Jerry West as far as NBA executives go. Morey is still very good, but Masai is a genius.

Getting Chris Paul but giving up Beverly is a wash defensively, and Beverly is younger and cheaper. I also don't view Harden as a top 5 player precisely because of not playing defense much, top 10 sure but top 5 have to be two way players and not liabilities on the defensive end. They just don't have enough good defensive players to begin with, and obviously not a very good coach when it comes to defense. They need one more piece, but with George gone and Carmelo as a buyout less likely now, not much more than can do (and I don't think Carmelo is enough to beat the Warriors either given what it should cost as a trade).

As far as the Sixers go, yeah it might not work out, but Embiid put up historic numbers when he did play, so even only playing 20 minutes a night he's a major impact player. Simmons doesn't need a jumpshot at this stage as his athleticism will take him far, especially since the Sixers can create space with their shooters. And never playing a meaningful NCAA game never mattered to LeBron, Kobe, KG etc. Fultz has got a Harden like game, so if he even comes close to that, and if that team adds LeBron, yeah that's a mighty good team, better than Cleveland's situation with no flexibility with the cap issues. You know he's staying East, and it's hard to find a better looking situation than that.

[Jason14h]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

Well seeing as George got traded for not much, it's a good to remember Masai pulled off an astonishing haul for Carmelo in the exact same situation as Indiana found itself in. Then of course he pulled off the Italian Job with getting a top 10 pick for Bargniani and his terrible contract. Great drafter too outside Bruno. Masai is behind only RC Buford and Jerry West as far as NBA executives go. Morey is still very good, but Masai is a genius.

Getting Chris Paul but giving up Beverly is a wash defensively, and Beverly is younger and cheaper. I also don't view Harden as a top 5 player precisely because of not playing defense much, top 10 sure but top 5 have to be two way players and not liabilities on the defensive end. They just don't have enough good defensive players to begin with, and obviously not a very good coach when it comes to defense. They need one more piece, but with George gone and Carmelo as a buyout less likely now, not much more than can do (and I don't think Carmelo is enough to beat the Warriors either given what it should cost as a trade).

As far as the Sixers go, yeah it might not work out, but Embiid put up historic numbers when he did play, so even only playing 20 minutes a night he's a major impact player. Simmons doesn't need a jumpshot at this stage as his athleticism will take him far, especially since the Sixers can create space with their shooters. And never playing a meaningful NCAA game never mattered to LeBron, Kobe, KG etc. Fultz has got a Harden like game, so if he even comes close to that, and if that team adds LeBron, yeah that's a mighty good team, better than Cleveland's situation with no flexibility with the cap issues. You know he's staying East, and it's hard to find a better looking situation than that.

So you strategy for building a winning team is be pathetic for 4 years and then hope Lebron comes to your team ! Solid plan !

[Senator Clay Davis]

Originally Posted by Da_Chief

What other stars are left? Too bad Blake re-signed with Clippers.

Minny, Thunder, Rockets, Pelicans, Wizards, Spurs all still need another guy.


Carmelo, Hayward, DeRozen, Lilliard, McCollum...NBA needs to get rid of 14 teams and distribute talent to the top 16..top 8 make the playoffs. Better tourney.

Minny could have it's three guys if Wiggins could actually not be awful at defense. Lowry is still out there and the Spurs are now possible with CP3 out of the picture. Pelicans with Lowry would be intriguing, but they still have nothing else after that. I think Klay to the Lakers could happen with the Warriors approaching cap hell when Curry re-signs and Klay needs a new deal in 2019, but that might be next year.

Also I know it's ESPN rankings, but with George to OKC 13 of their top 14 guys play in the West. Just contract the Eastern Conference and add the Cavs to the West.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

So you strategy for building a winning team is be pathetic for 4 years and then hope Lebron comes to your team ! Solid plan !

Well the Cavs got two number one picks in four years after LeBron left (and, you know, Anthony Bennett), although unlike Hinkie that was not the intended plan. In the NBA tanking is a strategy whether we like it or not. It's a star league significantly more than all the other major team sports, and tanking is one way to get stars (and more importantly keep them, especially given the new cap structure). Not everyone can be the Spurs or Warriors and not only be exceptionally managed, but a little lucky too.

[Drake]

@Wojepsn:
Stephen Curry has agreed to a 5-year, $201M deal with Golden State, agent Jeff Austin of Octagon tells ESPN. No... https://t.co/v8sOh909y7

[Jason14h]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

Well the Cavs got two number one picks in four years after LeBron left (and, you know, Anthony Bennett), although unlike Hinkie that was not the intended plan. In the NBA tanking is a strategy whether we like it or not. It's a star league significantly more than all the other major team sports, and tanking is one way to get stars (and more importantly keep them, especially given the new cap structure). Not everyone can be the Spurs or Warriors and not only be exceptionally managed, but a little lucky too.

Agreed, but you basically want every team to tank other then a select 5?.

Do we really want to Raps to be pathetic for the next 5 years for a small chance of getting a generational player and then hoping a star FA comes and joins them?

[Drake]

@ramonashelburne:
Paul George has been traded to OKC, per sources

Hearing Oladipo and Sabonis going to Indy

This doesn't necessarily change how Russell Westbrook is going to handle his situation re: extension talks. But obviously this is big

[Senator Clay Davis]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

Agreed, but you basically want every team to tank other then a select 5?.

Do we really want to Raps to be pathetic for the next 5 years for a small chance of getting a generational player and then hoping a star FA comes and joins them?

Not every team needs to tank, just teams like the Raptors who've gone as far as they can possibly go with their current roster. Unless Powell or Wright or Bruno or someone turns into an elite two way player, this team has nowhere to go. You don't even necessarily have to go full tank, guys like Curry and Kawhi and Giannis were taking after the top 8 picks, but you need to be in the lottery to really have a chance at those kinds of players.

Using the Rockets might seem a little harsh, but they were in the WCF three years ago and their odds of coming out of the West have gotten significantly worse since, through no fault of their own either. I just think pinning their hopes that a star who doesn't really fit their system at all will be the difference in a much tougher Western Conference seems misguided. They obviously couldn't have predicted George to OKC (who could?), but that move makes the Rockets at the absolute best the third best team out West, possibly fourth (or fifth depending on the Wolves), with the potential of two years from now having to pay Harden and CP3, both over 30, close to 80% of their cap with four years left on their deals. Scary to say the least. Nevermind that the Lakers are lurking with the potential to have huge FA ads themselves after next year.

Maybe the real trade Morey needs to find a way to make is to trade the Rockets to the Eastern Conference.