Women-only spa’s ‘no male genitals’ rule ignites transgender debate

[DiracSpike]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

It's easy to teach a child that some women have dicks, it's not easy to teach a child why society will not accept them.

Just because there's more nuance involved in having a discussion about how some men feel more comfortable dressed and acting as women doesn't mean it shouldn't be done. Your method involves telling outright lies to children about basic biology.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

I could see it being less of a transgender issue and more of a representation of north america's painfully conservative views on nudity and the human body, but if so, is that really worth protecting?

Is North America especially conservative when it comes to nudity? Northern Europe is more liberal than North America, granted. I can't think of another region of the world that is, though.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by DiracSpike

Just because there's more nuance involved in having a discussion about how some men feel more comfortable dressed and acting as women doesn't mean it shouldn't be done. Your method involves telling outright lies to children about basic biology.

"Some women are born with the body of a male or with male genitalia instead of their proper female body, they're still women though, so it can be quite difficult for them."

Oh look I used his method without lying. That was one of the best points Oling made in this entire thread. Have a conversation with your kids. It seems like your understanding of biology isn't current.

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Is North America especially conservative when it comes to nudity? Northern Europe is more liberal than North America, granted. I can't think of another region of the world that is, though.

Not necessarily, it's just conservative in general. There are worse places, and better places outside of just Northern Europe (You could just include Europe in general).

There's just really no excuse to shroud the human body in shame or over-sexualisation. Even our views on breast feeding in public can be pretty messed up compared to more places than just Europe.

[Canehdianman]

fine screw you imgur.

[DiracSpike]

Except they're not women. Everything else I agree with, but that part is the lie I'm talking about.

Can you honestly say you'd date a pre-op trans man (woman)?

[PsYcNeT]

Originally Posted by DiracSpike

Except they're not women. Everything else I agree with, but that part is the lie I'm talking about.

Can you honestly say you'd date a pre-op trans man (woman)?

"My feelings supersede the feelings of others! Also my sexuality is the only correct sexuality."

Also lolling at the apparent cognitive dissonance from the conservative posters here that suddenly believe women-only spaces are only good when they discriminate against something they hate more than feminists.

[Kybosh]

Originally Posted by DiracSpike

Just because there's more nuance involved in having a discussion about how some men feel more comfortable dressed and acting as women doesn't mean it shouldn't be done. Your method involves telling outright lies to children about basic biology.

I'm not going to get into the full debate here but your understanding of biology is inaccurate. Current understandings of genetics, brain function, physiology and countless other sub-disciplines do not support your view. This also goes beyond humans and is highly complex and prevalent throughout nature.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by DiracSpike

Except they're not women. Everything else I agree with, but that part is the lie I'm talking about.

Can you honestly say you'd date a pre-op trans man (woman)?

Except they are, but I suspect it's just a difference of how we view the concept. You view it as female body = woman, where as the view here is man/woman as a gender, with sex as a separate entity. Most often sex and gender line up. In these cases, they're mismatched. It's not that a man wants to dress and act like a woman, it's that a woman is in a man's body (or if you'd like: a male has the brain chemistry and makeup of a woman instead of a man). Bodies can be fixed, brain are more concrete.

The second question is irrelevant, my dating life and what I find emotionally and sexually attractive doesn't legitimise and illegitimise other people.

[Ducay]

I remember the good old days when there were 2 genders and anything in between was a mental illness. Now gender is fluid? My bio textbook must be obsolete

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Ducay

I remember the good old days when there were 2 genders and anything in between was a mental illness

Even if you treat it as a mental illness which clinically is not necessarily incorrect the most effective treatment to prevent suicide and other complications is for society and that person to live and express the gender they want to.

So whether it is "natural" or a "disorder" the outcome and treatment are the same. Accommodate them in the gender they wish to express.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

I don't think people representing either side of this argument are doing justice the actual amount of complexity involved, as there seems to be a strong lack of nuance in either position.

That said, your post raises a question: For what reason do these women (apparently) not want a penis around? I could see it being less of a transgender issue and more of a representation of north america's painfully conservative views on nudity and the human body, but if so, is that really worth protecting? Should we not be striving for an open, liberal culture, and one where the human body is recognised and respected in any form? Not sexualised or seen as a source of deep shame? Is that really worth defending?

A transgender woman is a woman, and while a pre-op body may not fully match this description, to what significance in this whole equation is a penis?

What is the fundamental reason for "women's only" spa? It seems like we haven't even defined the reason, and still people are defending it.

That will never happen. Humans instinctively want to have sex to procreate. That's just innate desire to keep the species going.

I'm not too proud to admit that if I was in a change room full of naked women I wouldn't have a naughty thought or two cross my mind. I of course wouldn't act on anything because I'm not an animal, but it's unrealistic to expect us not to view the human body sexually, especially those of the opposite sex.

As for a good reason to have a women's only spa? Maybe the women simply feel safer. Do you have to qualify their feelings? The spa in question obviously has patronage, so that seems like a good enough reason to me.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by DiracSpike

Except they're not women. Everything else I agree with, but that part is the lie I'm talking about.

Can you honestly say you'd date a pre-op trans man (woman)?

Wait, are you saying your definition of a women "someone I will date"?

[DiracSpike]

Like I already said, if someone wants to live their life as a woman that's no business of mine. Dress as a woman, use the women's washrooms, change your name to a female name, you have that right. In that way, a superficial appearances and name way, you're a woman and that's no business of society. There's also laws against denying employment or housing to trans people as there should be.

But it's when it gets down to an intimate level like public nudity, health, or dating, that's when some recognition of biological reality has to come into play. It's why PepsiFree won't answer my question because he's attracted to biological men, not women changing their name to Chazz and wearing mens clothes.

[Fighting Banana Slug]

Originally Posted by Ducay

I remember the good old days when there were 2 genders and anything in between was a mental illness. Now gender is fluid? My bio textbook must be obsolete

It is obsolete.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

That will never happen. Humans instinctively want to have sex to procreate. That's just innate desire to keep the species going.

I'm not too proud to admit that if I was in a change room full of naked women I wouldn't have a naughty thought or two cross my mind. I of course wouldn't act on anything because I'm not an animal, but it's unrealistic to expect us not to view the human body sexually, especially those of the opposite sex.

As for a good reason to have a women's only spa? Maybe the women simply feel safer. Do you have to qualify their feelings? The spa in question obviously has patronage, so that seems like a good enough reason to me.

When I say sexualised, I mean so as an object. Sexuality and the human body should be celebrated, we should be comfortable with these things. Our culture has created a toxic sexualisation of the human body as an object. There are females that you'd be able to see naked and not think of having sex with, or at least be put-off by the thought, right? People who other men find attractive in some way, or have engaged in a sexual relation with. Why? It's not seeing an attractive person and feeling attracted that we need to change, it's the culture where some people can't be in a room with other naked people and mentally treat it as a sexual opportunity or fantasy.

Just look at someone who you don't find all that attractive. Now imagine them naked. The proper response is that you've seen genitals before and it should change nothing. The over-sexualised response is that suddenly this unattractive person is someone who you'd have sex with. We need to eliminate the equation of nudity = sex, not eliminate the laws of attraction.

Do you see breasts and find them sexually stimulating? Why? Their sole purpose is to provide food to babies. Isn't it weird to be sexually attracted to a food source? What about a nice bum? Does bum play a big role in making babies? And you know the whole "sometimes people aren't attracted to the opposite sex" thing. Point being, our innate desire to procreate isn't really the only factor or even the driving factor in sexuality, culture plays a big role.

And yeah, I think it's ok to ask why they feel safer or what about "man" that makes them feel unsafe. You're suddenly saying that a woman could ban you from anywhere on the grounds of feeling safer, and you wouldn't even question it? Even I'm not THAT much of a SJW.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by DiracSpike

But it's when it gets down to an intimate level like public nudity, health, or dating, that's when some recognition of biological reality has to come into play. It's why PepsiFree won't answer my question because he's attracted to biological men, not women changing their name to Chazz and wearing mens clothes.

Actually I won't answer your question because I don't appreciate a phony interest in my sexuality being used as a prop in your argument.

Further confirmed by you not getting the answer you wanted, and then creating a fiction to justify your ignorant argument anyway.

[bigtmac19]

Originally Posted by northcrunk

They are projecting. Jordan Peterson is far from bat#### crazy. He is actually pretty reasonable and well spoken. He just doesn't think speech should be legislated.

Agreed.

I've listened to a lot of his lectures online, I find him really interesting and his lectures really helpful on a lot of topics. His subjects have answered a lot of questions for me about things going on in my life.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

When I say sexualised, I mean so as an object. Sexuality and the human body should be celebrated, we should be comfortable with these things. Our culture has created a toxic sexualisation of the human body as an object.

Every culture sexualizes the human body.

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

It's not seeing an attractive person and feeling attracted that we need to change, it's the culture where some people can't be in a room with other naked people and mentally treat it as a sexual opportunity or fantasy.

Modesty around nakedness, especially around the opposite sex, is pretty much a human universal. In every culture we know of, people cover their genitals. In almost every culture that has traditions around public bathing, the baths are segregated by gender.

It's probably a good hang-up to move past. And a handful of societies have (Germany was cited earlier). But it's not a hang-up peculiar to our culture. It seems rooted in natural instincts around sexuality.

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Do you see breasts and find them sexually stimulating? Why?

They're evidence of health and fertility. Our instincts around sex are driven in large party by the desire to successfully pass on our genes.

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

What about a nice bum? Does bum play a big role in making babies?

Again, it's evidence of health and fertility.

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Point being, our innate desire to procreate isn't really the only factor or even the driving factor in sexuality, culture plays a big role.

Yes, they both pay a big role. But we can't just snap our fingers and make the innate factors go away. This type of social change takes decades. And as I noted, new factors can make change go the other way, as with the declining public nudity in Germany owing to cell phone cameras and cultural friction with conservative newcomers.

[Makarov]

I haven't read through the thread, but isn't there a reasonable and relatively painless accommodation option for spa patrons who experience discomfort being nude in front of a pre-operative transgendered female? Can't the just wear a towel? Or am I missing something?

Similarly, can't change room patrons who experience discomfort just go change in one of the individual stalls which are invariably provided in every change room?

These seem like straightforward accommodations to me.

[Rubicant]

Originally Posted by Makarov

I haven't read through the thread, but isn't there a reasonable and relatively painless accommodation option for spa patrons who experience discomfort being nude in front of a pre-operative transgendered female? Can't the just wear a towel? Or am I missing something?

Similarly, can't change room patrons who experience discomfort just go change in one of the individual stalls which are invariably provided in every change room?

These seem like straightforward accommodations to me.

I didn't even think of that point of view - I assumed they didn't want to see the pre-op transgendered female naked. It's probably both.