[News] New Arena - Plan B - Victoria Park

[Corral]

Moving is such an empty threat because everyone knows the league owners would much rather take an expansion fee worth hundreds of millions from any city that really wants an NHL franchise.

Wake me up when the Flames are told the new arena is on the Stampede grounds and is built with their money while the City pays for the ancillary infrastructure - like it or lump it.

[OldDutch]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Having seen the storied Seattle Supersonics become the Oklahoma City Thunder, I don't think it's crazy to think the Flames could move without a new Arena. However I'm confident an arena deal will get done so it's a moot point.

I think we need to drop this comparison. A quick browse of Wikipedia gives you the deatils that are far different than here:

From 2001 to 2006, Starbucks CEO Howard Schultz was the majority owner of the team, along with 58 partners or minor owners, as part of the Basketball Club of Seattle LLP. On July 18, 2006, Schultz sold the SuperSonics and its sister team, the Women's National Basketball Association (WNBA)'s Seattle Storm, to the Professional Basketball Club LLC (PBC), a group of businessmen from Oklahoma City for $350 million.[4] The team relocated to Oklahoma City in 2008, and now plays as the Oklahoma City Thunder.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seattle_SuperSonics

They basically bought with the motive to move if they didn't get everything they wanted. They didn't and moved. Calgary has several businessmen who are local, it wouldn't help their business cause at all to move the Flames.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Fire

. Some people seem to have short memories, the Save the Flames campaign was not that long ago.

17 years ago in a completely different cap system (aka none) that may as well be considered a different sports league. Not comparable in the least.

[Fire]

Originally Posted by jayswin

17 years ago in a completely different cap system (aka none) that may as well be considered a different sports league. Not comparable in the least.

The cap helps a lot but it doesn't prevent the Flames from turning into a bottom 10 team in the future.

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by DiracSpike

I'm a little astonished at the hardliners who are daring the team to move by not supporting the use of public funds in any way, but at the same time are morally outraged that the team would threaten to move. Pick one.

I think it has something to do with the fact that they are bringing it up so early in the game. It's been two years since they made their proposal, which in the grand scheme of arenas, is very short.

They jumped a few chapters in the field of schemes playbook.

But it's also hard for them to try and tug at the emotional angle (the fans, the sick kids, the charity) and talk about how integral the team is to the city, and then threaten to leave it all behind. It's kind of a slap in the face.

If they want to make a business case, then we, as a city, will make a business case too. We can leave emotion out of it... unfortunately the business case for stadium subsidies has been disproved so many times that it's amazing people still argue it.

[oldschoolcalgary]

Originally Posted by DiracSpike

...I can't tell what you're arguing with me about. People seem to think there's zero chance they could move and I'm pointing out reasons why I think they could, most notably through just washing their hands of their 1/31 share of the NHL and collecting their massive capital gains. I don't think it'll happen, I'm reasonably confident that both parties will come to an agreement with the knowledge that Calgary is better with the Flames and the Flames are better with Calgary, but it's a possibility.

I'm a little astonished at the hardliners who are daring the team to move by not supporting the use of public funds in any way, but at the same time are morally outraged that the team would threaten to move. Pick one.

I don't see these as mutually exclusive...

people can see the veiled threat of moving as outrageous and simultaneously not want public money being put towards a private corporation.

Burke threatening to move doesn't help move the process forward whatsoever and just acts to galvanize those that are against providing public funds

[IrishSpring2013]

Originally Posted by Fire

Some people seem to have short memories, the Save the Flames campaign was not that long ago.

it's been almost 20 years... it was that long ago.. it literally has zero bearing on whats happeing today

[Fire]

Originally Posted by IrishSpring2013

it's been almost 20 years... it was that long ago.. it literally has zero bearing on whats happeing today

Yup, zero chance of a Canadian team ever leaving again... ok gotcha.

[Backlunds_socks]

Public money for private ventures of GE mega rich.... ok

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Fire

Yup, zero chance of a Canadian team ever leaving again... ok gotcha.

Or zero bearing on Flames ownership showing gratitude or loyalty? Probably different ways to look at it but I don't think it matters much today, does it?

[Senator Clay Davis]

If a Canadian team is leaving to move to Murica, then it almost certainly is coinciding with the league contracting teams (which, since an utter humiliation to Bettman, is extremely unlikely). Saying it once again, but there are existing American markets that are currently underwater financially. There are no Canadian teams underwater, or even close. Hell look at Anaheim, a consistent top level team the last 10 years and they can't even sell out playoff games. How ugly are things going to get for that market when they go into an Oilers like stretch of no good? And that's ultimately why Canadian markets are unlikely to move, except maybe Winnipeg. Because when the times get tough for a team, in a Canadian market the building is still almost full. Murican markets? Not so much.

[Schultzie]

It won't happen, but I'm at the point where I'm actively hoping they move.

[Tinordi]

The sheer number of gullible rubes in this thread thinking the Flames will leave a top ten revenue market even with the oldest building in the league for a bunch of magic beans.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

The sheer number of gullible rubes in this thread thinking the Flames will leave a top ten revenue market even with the oldest building in the league for a bunch of magic beans.

The Flames are tugging on the right heart string for sure. It's not a genuine threat by the Flames, but unfortunately they have other genuine threats to point to in order to get some citizens believing it.

It's funny reading so many expressing ambivalence to actual joy at the idea of the Flames leaving Calgary because of the actions of current management. The dissatisfaction of the situation I can understand, leading to emotional statements. But I can almost certainly call BS on these people if the ball ever actually got rolling.

Guaranteed the posters in this thread would do a 180 and would be in agony, upset at losing a Calgary fixture that they grew up watching and cheering for. Right now they're just talking, just making comments that fit their current emotional feelings.

If anything many are making these "good riddance" comments because of the security that deep down they know there's almost no chance of it happening. If there was any substance to relocation you'd see concern instead of anger/joy.

[Schultzie]

Originally Posted by jayswin

The Flames are tugging on the right heart string for sure. It's not a genuine threat by the Flames, but unfortunately they have other genuine threats to point to in order to get some citizens believing it.

It's funny reading so many expressing ambivalence to actual joy at the idea of the Flames leaving Calgary because of the actions of current management. The dissatisfaction of the situation I can understand, leading to emotional statements. But I can almost certainly call BS on these people if the ball ever actually got rolling.

Guaranteed the posters in this thread would do a 180 and would be in agony, upset at losing a Calgary fixture that they grew up watching and cheering for. Right now they're just talking, just making comments that fit their current emotional feelings.

If anything many are making these "good riddance" comments because of the security that deep down they know there's almost no chance of it happening. If there was any substance to relocation you'd see concern instead of anger/joy.

I think you'd be surprised. I'm one of those life-long fans who grew up cheering for the Flames, but a big part of that was due to how accessible the games were. In the 90s, I could save my allowance, mow some lawns, and I'd have enough to get myself into the Dome. There isn't a chance in hell a kid would be able to do that now. Ticket prices have become prohibitively expensive for all but a small minority of Calgarians, and that's only going to get worse with the construction of a new arena.

I still enjoy watching the Flames, but hockey doesn't hold nearly as much importance to me as it once did, and over time I suspect it's fallen down the priority list for most of us. The NHL isn't what it used to be, and if keeping it in Calgary means having to use public funds to subsidize billionaires so they can build a privately owned arena which only a handful of citizens will be wealthy enough to access, I'll happily say goodbye. Losing the Hitmen would be a bigger deal to me at this point.

[stone hands]

i am a sth and i wouldn't change my stance even if they were going to move for what its worth

[Cambardi]

I vote my tax dollars go towards building another awesome venue in Edmonton. (oh and I also am a sth)

[Mr.Coffee]

For people that support public funding for a new arena, what are you waiting for? Get out your chequebooks and send money to Murray Edwards. Just don't drag me and my money into it because you don't want to wait 3 seconds to take a leak.

I bet many of these people are the same who complain when property taxes rise.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

For people that support public funding for a new arena, what are you waiting for? Get out your chequebooks and send money to Murray Edwards. Just don't drag me and my money into it because you don't want to wait 3 seconds to take a leak.

I bet many of these people are the same who complain when property taxes rise.

It's typically upper middle class to wealthy earners that are in favor of things like sports stadiums. It seems weird when you'll see the same individuals being completely against public spending for so many other things that benefit low income earners.

The psychology behind it is they feel their taxes continually prop up those less fortunate than them where as a sports stadium is something that they feel they can actually get some value out of for themselves.

They're paying taxes anyways, don't care if their taxes go to things that help lower income citizens (and in many cases actually oppose this), they can afford higher ticket prices to get into said stadium, so of course they're in favor of the rest of us propping up a better sports experience for them.


Just some perspective for those that are confused by seeing typically fiscal conservatives in the city (and on CP) suddenly okay with hundreds of millions being handed to billionaire sports owners for a private venture.

[Falclore]

There is a cost to run and maintain the Saddledome. I am not sure what that would amount to in a year, but guessing without the Flames, the cost to the city and all the taxpayers will go up as the Flames currently cover this as part of the arena deal. Also interested to see what would happen to the management and running of the Hitmen as there is alot of synergies with having the Flames run and own the team. Would they continue to be a top tier franchise if the Flames were not here, I would guess no.

I am always interested to see how many people hold the City's management of the tax dollars in high praise. I can tell you, I will never step foot in the new $300million dollar library. There are currently 18 libraries in the city, I can go to any one of them today. I would rather have part of that funding go to an Arena that would give me the opportunity to go to a concert that is currently bypassing Calgary instead of driving to Edmonton. (Too many sweatpants and missing teeth for my liking). Not to mention a potentially better fan experience for the Flames game.

I know lots of people will be on both sides of the argument, but you will always have a strong amount of people on both sides of the issue. I am on the side of building a new building, guess that makes me one of the morons...