Explosion at Ariana Grande Concert in England

[peter12]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Even before Hitler came along they still considered themselves to be ubermen.

Even though we tend to look at WWI like some kind of avoidable Holocaust, the Western Allies were more than justified in going to war with Germany. It was truly Act 1 to the Second World War.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by peter12

Even though we tend to look at WWI like some kind of avoidable Holocaust, the Western Allies were more than justified in going to war with Germany. It was truly Act 1 to the Second World War.

I would agree, mankind was in a constant state of war from the start of WW1 to the end of WW2.

It was like a brush fire that you can't quite pull out. I've always believed that it was one giant war, with a global and bizarre switch of leadership in all nations at almost the same time.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I would agree, mankind was in a constant state of war from the start of WW1 to the end of WW2.

It was like a brush fire that you can't quite pull out. I've always believed that it was one giant war, with a global and bizarre switch of leadership in all nations at almost the same time.

Even the Balkan Wars of the 1990s were essentially carry over from WWI. The main catalyst was artificial borders drawn to "punish" the side that lost (i.e., the Austrian and Hungarian allies). Things festered until WWII and all hell broke loose, and then they essentially put the borders back to how they were.

[Northendzone]

I read something in passing that ariana grande is paying for the funerals of some/all of the victims.

it will be interesting to see if she ever gets on stage again, as it would be hard not to feel some level of "guilt" (if that is the right word) for what happened even though I am assuming it had nothing to do with her

[peter12]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Even the Balkan Wars of the 1990s were essentially carry over from WWI. The main catalyst was artificial borders drawn to "punish" the side that lost (i.e., the Austrian and Hungarian allies). Things festered until WWII and all hell broke loose, and then they essentially put the borders back to how they were.

There is a connection but it isn't a continuation. Most people just didn't and still don't understand the extent to which regional and global hegemony keeps the peace. When the Soviet Union died, it left a lot of weapons behind but not much else in the way of stable institutions that could successfully continue the peace kept by armed Soviet troops.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Northendzone

I read something in passing that ariana grande is paying for the funerals of some/all of the victims.

it will be interesting to see if she ever gets on stage again, as it would be hard not to feel some level of "guilt" (if that is the right word) for what happened even though I am assuming it had nothing to do with her

I think that is unconfirmed, and released by the same side that said she was in a mental hospital and then withdrew the story.

I kind of feel sorry for her, she's young so how does she even process this, and at the same time she's getting slammed by internet trolls for not continuing her tour.

I don't know much about her at all, but her exposure to this is pretty horrifying as well.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by Northendzone

I read something in passing that ariana grande is paying for the funerals of some/all of the victims.

it will be interesting to see if she ever gets on stage again, as it would be hard not to feel some level of "guilt" (if that is the right word) for what happened even though I am assuming it had nothing to do with her

I need to stay off social media. She's getting trashed on twitter and facebook

[Itse]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

I need to stay off social media. She's getting trashed on twitter and facebook

Seriously? WTF. I'm guessing (hoping?) it's the usual internet misogynists again showing their class... (and not something even worse I can't even pretend to comprehend)

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Itse

Seriously? WTF. I'm guessing (hoping?) it's the usual internet misogynists again showing their class... (and not something even worse I can't even pretend to comprehend)

I was reading an article that she was getting hammered for being a spoiled brat for not continuing the tour and that her leaving has let the terrorists win.

Like I said, I don't know her or her music, but people forget that these are human beings too.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by peter12

Not really.

Universal sufferage was introduced into Prussia in 1848, far before the UK, now I would agree that democracy across Europe was in its infancy through the 19th century and thus in the German states as well but by the 1940's democracy was as well entrenched in Germany as it was in the US and the UK, Hitler was an elected dictator.

[CaptainCrunch]

Just to kind of shift things back

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/24/w...bing-live.html

http://www.ctvnews.ca/world/u-k-poli...eaks-1.3428383

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Yeah, I'm not exactly an expert on German history but weren't they largely a collection of feudal lands?

the Age of revoloution in the 1840's changed the face of Germany more than most, by 1860 Prussia had effectively taken over much of what we consider Germany, the France Prussian war of 1870 unified the country into what we call Germany now, through all of this Prussia/Germany was as democratic as any other country in europe

[peter12]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

the Age of revoloution in the 1840's changed the face of Germany more than most, by 1860 Prussia had effectively taken over much of what we consider Germany, the France Prussian war of 1870 unified the country into what we call Germany now, through all of this Prussia/Germany was as democratic as any other country in europe

This is nonsense.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by peter12

This is nonsense.

universal sufferage was introduced to Germany in 1871, fully 30 years before the UK.

[Magnum PEI]

The Kaiser was limited by the constitution and only had autocratic rule between 1897-1900 because the Chancellor was weak and had heart problems. After that Bulow was Chancellor and had more control. The Robert K. Massie books talk all about this. Two of my favourite books.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

universal sufferage was introduced to Germany in 1871, fully 30 years before the UK.

I don't think this is accurate at all but I don't know enough about 19th century Germany to say solidly.

From what I know of the suffragette movement in the US and Canada though, this seems highly inaccurate, otherwise it would be a prominent example.

[DownhillGoat]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

universal sufferage was introduced to Germany in 1871, fully 30 years before the UK.

No, male suffrage was introduced in 1871. Women couldn't vote until 1918.

[Since1984]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

universal sufferage was introduced to Germany in 1871, fully 30 years before the UK.

This is a lie, Universal Suffrage was established in 1919, in 1871 Male suffrage was fully established.

[Flamenspiel]

I think your off on this one afc, the Kaiser had absolute power regardless of parliament and the later Wiemar Republic lead to Hitler. They had a parliament in the same way the Russians have a DUMA now. Democracy did not really get established until the post WWII period.

India is probably a good example of a post colonial democracy, they have been at it since 1948. Sure they have had a violent history but to great extent it has worked out. Its a functional state very much on the rise, this was accomplished without any real help from the great powers.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

So I sort of checked out of this thread but I am intrigued as to how it transformed itself into a discussion of 19th century German history.