[News] New Arena - Plan B - Victoria Park

[topfiverecords]

Wow this thread moves fast. There's no way King is making any progress on the work that needs to be done when spending his whole day reading this thread.

[Bingo]

So the building goes in and the cost is 100% to CalgaryNext project, whatever sharing mechanism for funding comes up, and then the other 70% of the area is developed without the city have any infrastructure costs in order to develop.

Does that make sense to you.

The comparison is West Village completed without CalgaryNext and West Village completed with CalgaryNext.

What is the cost difference, good or bad, can be netted into the CalgaryNext portion, to bill the whole development against CalgaryNext is to say it will never be developed otherwise, and if that's the case ... say it and be done with it.

[nik-]

The cost is the cost of remediating the area and providing infrastructure to facilitate CalgaryNEXT. It's not like a line item that we're sliding over to the Flames when the bill comes due, because guess what, we're paying it all anyway in that plan.

Then at the end there's a giant tax black hole in the middle when it could be taxable properties with the planned timeline.

Whether you like it or not, or want to assign it to CalgaryNEXT or not, it's still the cost.

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by Bingo

If the city has a long range plan that doesn't permit building up the west village at this time I would get it.

You have no idea how I would respond to a hypothetical situation.

But, you don't get it. The city was pretty clear that they don't want the West Village to be built right now, lest the EV gets cannibalized. They also don't want to use the CRL revenue on the arena when the entire area needs new infrastructure spending. Also, given the lack of land in the WV, they don't want the CRL potential to be gutted by the black hole of an arena.

Also adding in the cost of cleanup and the accelerated version increasing the costs by a large amount, i dont understand why this issue is bothering you.

They spent four months reviewing the proposal from CalgaryNext. Four months... four a government organization... that is lightspeed.

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

Did they not say all of those things?

Between the report, and the transcript of the council meeting where it was discussed, I'm pretty sure all of those points were explicitly stated (in addition to other reasonable concerns).

I don't see how council could have even arrived at the conclusions stated without an analysis first?

There's a lot more stuff here

From attachment 4 - page 18:

NSFW!

I feel like people have been affected by the newspaper headlines written after this meeting. CNext was 'torpedoed' (to borrow a word from a headline) thoughtfully, analytically, meticulously, respectfully, and professionally - by both administration and council. King & Co. are entitled to disagree as they wish (and there are parts of the analysis worthy of debate), but the City went above and beyond in 'showing their work'. I may be wrong, but I don't think Nenshi's snark really picked up until after King seems to have stubbornly buried his head in the sand to all of the analysis and tried to play the spin game first.

Soundbites sell. People remember them.

For everyone who jumps on Nenshi for his snark, he is doing it for a reason.

[NiklasSundblad]

Originally Posted by Bingo

As I've said numerous times "we don't want a project in the East Village" is a perfectly justifiable response to me.

The Flames were in fact told this well before they pitched their arena plan powerpoint presentation to the public. They just ignored it and tried to leverage public sentiment against the city to get free land.

[Snuffleupagus]

Originally Posted by Bunk

Here's the size breakdown from the presentation. Plenty of room.

I like the idea of a multi arena but I don't like the west village area. Seems to me the land around the Vic park area will need some upgrading, anyone with the skills care to try and fit CalgaryNext into this map?

If it's only a case of ripping down a few old decrepit buildings why not?

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Cappy

But, you don't get it. The city was pretty clear that they don't want the West Village to be built right now, lest the EV gets cannibalized. They also don't want to use the CRL revenue on the arena when the entire area needs new infrastructure spending. Also, given the lack of land in the WV, they don't want the CRL potential to be gutted by the black hole of an arena.

Also adding in the cost of cleanup and the accelerated version increasing the costs by a large amount, i dont understand why this issue is bothering you.

They spent four months reviewing the proposal from CalgaryNext. Four months... four a government organization... that is lightspeed.

No you don't get it.

I said several times that if they didn't want to build in West Village for any reason; competing with East Village, they like big bus depots and car dealerships ... then just say that.

I said I was fine with that.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Bingo

No you don't get it.

I said several times that if they didn't want to build in West Village for any reason; competing with East Village, they like big bus depots and car dealerships ... then just say that.

I said I was fine with that.

They wrote a very large report saying it.

[Table 5]

They said it. They showed their work. They spent time and effort to propose an alternative. All for a private business that isn't entitled to any of that type of special treatment.

How is that not good enough?

[Bingo]

OK guys uncle ... were just going in circles.

I've been disappointed in both sides, stated that clearly but answering 11 different people hell bent sticking up for the mayor and the city gets tiresome.

My summary for those that missed it ...

-I think Nenshi is a wanker
-I think King is a blowhard
-I think they both like themselves more than the actual project or their jobs
-I think its a pretty normal ask from the owners for public money as that's what Edmonton and a host of other Canadian cities have done.
-I think the city has every right to deny it.
-I think the answer will largely come in with some public money, and a host of other elements much less than what the Flames are looking for.
-I think a mayor trying to land an olympics at the same time he thwarts a building project is odd
-I think the Flames meant well with CalgaryNext as a way to develop the west side and get the city some wins in the process.
-I think they did a terrible job of how they presented it, as I feel a "this is why we think it fits" presentation would have gone a lot further than the "you need to do this because Calgary needs it" approach.
-I think the city wants a building in East Village and because of that they will have to kick in
-If they don't I think we'll see a building towards Langdon funded by the team completely which nobody wants

[Flash Walken]

lol

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by Bingo

No you don't get it.

I said several times that if they didn't want to build in West Village for any reason; competing with East Village, they like big bus depots and car dealerships ... then just say that.

I said I was fine with that.

Oh yeah, you're right.

I didn't realize that was their underlying plan all along. Thanks for reading between the lines for all of us, Bingo. Stellar inside analysis of City Hall.

[Freeway]

I don't completely buy the notion that the Olympic bid is entirely separated from the new building, but the concept of the new building is that the city wants development (to a certain extent) on their terms after decades of having developers dictate what was happening to them. You might not agree with the approach, but the city's putting all their eggs in the EV/Vic Park/17th basket these days.

[Bingo]

man the level of pissiness on this topic is astounding.

from dripping sarcasm, to being told what I'm thinking, to be told I'm transparent, to just a cheeky LOL ...

every urban dictionary has a definition around "you can't fight city hall", but clearly that should be expanded to include those that support city hall as well.

[Freeway]

-I think its a pretty normal ask from the owners for public money as that's what Edmonton and a host of other Canadian cities have done.
-I think the city has every right to deny it.
-I think the answer will largely come in with some public money, and a host of other elements much less than what the Flames are looking for.
-I think the Flames meant well with CalgaryNext as a way to develop the west side and get the city some wins in the process.
-I think they did a terrible job of how they presented it, as I feel a "this is why we think it fits" presentation would have gone a lot further than the "you need to do this because Calgary needs it" approach.
-I think the city wants a building in East Village and because of that they will have to kick in

The whole thing basically boils down to two things.
1) The Flames seemingly didn't communicate well with the City during the planning stages, otherwise the City probably would've steered them towards the East Village in terms of being their best bet in actually getting public money.
2) The majority of Canadian arenas are now built privately, as municipalities are increasingly cash-poor. Edmonton and Calgary are the only buildings in Canada built using significant amounts of public coin.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Freeway

The whole thing basically boils down to two things.
1) The Flames seemingly didn't communicate well with the City during the planning stages, otherwise the City probably would've steered them towards the East Village in terms of being their best bet in actually getting public money.
2) The majority of Canadian arenas are now built privately, as municipalities are increasingly cash-poor. Edmonton and Calgary are the only buildings in Canada built using significant amounts of public coin.

Quick google has (arenas and stadiums) BC Place, Rogers Place, Mosaic, MTS, Investors Field, BMO Field, Tim Horton's Field, TD Place, VideoTron all built with public money, unless that's not what you meant.

I certainly don't like the Edmonton deal and I'd have to dig into the others. I don't mind public money as long as it's done responsibly and using some creativity.

[Calgary4LIfe]

I am actually surprised that the city has put in so much work on this project themselves. I honestly didn't think it was their job to do so, and thought that they just acted as fact checkers more than anything.

I actually buy their rationale on why WV isn't feasible. It sounds like it could be feasible of the Flames wanted to wait another 10 years until WV becomes a focus. Still, I am of the mind that I don't want the arena there and prefer that the city does something more with the area (and I hope it isn't just a bunch of condo towers).

I dislike what happened in Eu Claire where it was supposed to be a trendy area to go to and become a vibrant part of downtown where events could be held and so on. Then developers got their hands on it, put up all these condo towers up, and people complained about the noise. I hope the WV will turn into something that pulls people towards downtown and allows everyone access to the river. I think a big arena/stadium complex would have (for me personally) kind of ruined the appeal of hanging out (at least according to what plans came out of that so called pitch) in that area. I am actually glad that the city denied it.

I am, however, in favor of building 2 stadiums at once in something like CalgaryNEXT. However, the only way I can think it will ever make financial sense is if it is joined with a successful Olympic bid (and that bid must in my mind account for a substantial ROI to make it worth it, which I think there is a chance of happening).

I really sided with the Flames at first on this project, but I have been massively swayed and thank goodness that Calgary's city council aren't the pushovers that are Edmonton's. I am ok with some public financing, but in my opinion the city has to get ROI on it as well. What would they get out of CalgaryNext? Not much from what I could see.

I really think that CalgaryNext failed from the get-go because why exactly would the city suddenly start developing an area that they were not financially prepared to do so? Especially now given the economic climate. In my estimation, you have to provide a tangible public benefit and/or a revenue stream from the city. Just hoping for developers to start projects just because of an arena build with so much empty office space in the city, and it being such a strong renters market doesn't make much sense. The city wasn't going to see an ROI.

About the only thing I liked about CalgaryNext in hindsight was that the land would finally get remediated. However, I really think the Federal and Provincial governments should help in this case. AFAIK, the Bow River ends up emptying into the Hudson's Bay. Although I am sure it is greatly diluted by then to such an insignificant amount, that is a long line of pollution that should be corrected and done with.

I just find it funny that the Flames were adamant that there was no "Plan B" option (obviously a negotiation tactic) but the city stepped up and worked on a very workable option that the Flames at least seem very highly interested in. They basically did all the work to this point by the sounds of it. If that doesn't scream 'receptive and cooperative', I have no idea what would.

[Tinordi]

The idea that the city didn't *clearly* communicate to King that West Village was not going to fly with them before he went public is delusional.

Bingo, people are jumping on you because your opinion that both the City and the Flames are equally culpable is not rooted in a reasoned assessment of the evidence. The city has been upright and above board in this process and, if anything, they've shown flexibility and willingness to see something done. CSEC have not extended the same courtesy.

For you to contort this into an invalid and humdrum "both sides" argument is good reason to be called out.

[Bunk]

Sigh.

If only this could have all been avoided

Again:

Nenshi’s office has warned against this kind of move.

“If they proposed West Village, they’d be nuts,” policy analyst Josh White wrote to his colleagues in January 2013. “We told them two years ago the challenge with this site … The business case only makes sense if you can fully build it out at very high density. An arena sucks up a huge (piece) of land, leaving a lot less to pay back a CRL (community revitalization levy).”

In another e-mail, White suggested West Village shouldn’t be opened up for at least a decade, lest it “cannibalize market demand” for East Village.

Who is this White fella? He seems to have seen all this coming in 2011.

http://calgaryherald.com/news/local-...e-flames-arena