At the time, I didn't think a radical guy like Sanders could win, although I personally like him from an ethical perspective. After Trump won, I think anything was possible in hindsight and Bernie may have gained enough favour.
It's important to remember though that he is also an economic isolationist and being competent, he would probably succeed in that area. As a Canadian, it might not be the best for us.
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"A pessimist thinks things can't get any worse. An optimist knows they can."
Ya, is it really so wrong to suggest the American public is to blame for falling for a populist bozo selling snake oil?
Yeah, they are responsible. At least those who chose to vote for Trump based on believing snake oil promises. Nonetheless, the electorate is the electorate. The election is a competition to win them over.
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"If stupidity got us into this mess, then why can't it get us out?"
Yeah, they are responsible. At least those who chose to vote for Trump based on believing snake oil promises. Nonetheless, the electorate is the electorate. The election is a competition to win them over.
It's an argument where you're both right.
Clinton should've changed tactics to more populism as that's what the independents were after.
I'm not insinuating shenanigans or anything like that. Just my opinion that he was the better choice and would have likely beat trump when it got down to the final 2 candidates. In my opinion Clinton just had him outgunned with her campaign funding and name selling power, not because she was the better choice. Basically the same way trump got the nomination over any other republican candidate.
Well, if you look at what Bernie's campaign platform consists of, he was touting, directly from his website... https://berniesanders.com/issues/
INCOME AND WEALTH INEQUALITY IT'S TIME TO MAKE COLLEGE TUITION FREE AND DEBT FREE
GETTING BIG MONEY OUT OF POLITICS AND RESTORING DEMOCRACY
CREATING DECENT PAYING JOBS
A LIVING WAGE COMBATING CLIMATE CHANGE TO SAVE THE PLANET A FAIR AND HUMANE IMMIGRATION POLICY RACIAL JUSTICE FIGHTING FOR AFFORDABLE HOUSING FIGHTING FOR WOMEN'S RIGHTS WORKING TO CREATE AN AIDS AND HIV-FREE GENERATION FIGHTING FOR LGBT EQUALITY EMPOWERING TRIBAL NATIONS
CARING FOR OUR VETERANS MEDICARE FOR ALL STRENGTHEN AND EXPAND SOCIAL SECURITY
FIGHTING TO LOWER PRESCRIPTION DRUG PRICES
FIGHTING FOR DISABILITY RIGHTS
SENATOR BERNIE SANDERS' PLAN FOR PUERTO RICO
STANDING WITH GUAM
PREVENTING A GLOBAL RACE TO THE BOTTOM IN THE AIRLINE INDUSTRY
GENERAL ELECTRIC MUST PAY TO RESTORE THE HUDSON RIVER CONSTITUTION PIPELINE MUST BE DEFEATED SUPPORTING HISTORICALLY BLACK COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES
ENDING THE RACE TO THE BOTTOM FIGHTING FOR THE RIGHTS OF NATIVE HAWAIIANS
IMPROVING THE RURAL ECONOMY
FIGHTING FOR NURSES REFORMING WALL STREET
REAL FAMILY VALUES WAR AND PEACE
WAR SHOULD BE THE LAST OPTION: WHY I SUPPORT THE IRAN DEAL MAKING THE WEALTHY, WALL STREET, AND LARGE CORPORATIONS PAY THEIR FAIR SHARE
Of this list, i've italicized items that I don't believe that the GOP base would be in favor of... the red bold and italicized are things i think they would be flat out against.
the green items i think are in line with the GOP base for the most part... the rest i don't have enough information to say one way or the other
Honestly - this platform didn't even get the majority of liberals on Bernie's side to win the nomination and people are saying he would have won the presidency?!
sorry, i just don't see it...
.
Last edited by oldschoolcalgary; 05-13-2017 at 07:51 PM.
Ha ha, seeing as how you appear to have appointed yourself special prosecutor in this conversation, I'll "take the stand for cross examination".
My belief is that the electorate is increasingly angry, frustrated and anti-establishment, on both sides of the spectrum. That sentiment was powerful in the 2016 election. The fact that Trump was winning the republican nomination and Sanders was coming out of nowhere to challenge in the democratic primaries should have been early signs for people employed to manage Hillary's campaign, as well as for Hillary herself, that anti-establishment populism was going to be a big factor. They did not get it and they did not respond.
Go read a book like Shattered if you want someone inside the campaign to give you details.
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"If stupidity got us into this mess, then why can't it get us out?"
You're not saying anything I haven't heard a million times, mostly from republicans.
So, what should she have done? This is what I'm interested in, it's easy to blame Hillary, but what should she have done? Promise coal jobs? Promise to repeal Obamacare, but keep ACA?
What?
You're not saying anything I haven't heard a million times, mostly from republicans.
So, what should she have done? This is what I'm interested in, it's easy to blame Hillary, but what should she have done? Promise coal jobs? Promise to repeal Obamacare, but keep ACA?
What?
So do you actually think she and her campaign did everything right, or even did decently well?
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"If stupidity got us into this mess, then why can't it get us out?"
Honestly - this platform didn't even get the majority of liberals on Bernie's side to win the nomination and people are saying he would have won the presidency?!
sorry, i just don't see it...
.
I look at it this way, a lot of people voted for trump because he wasn't Clinton, and a lot of people voted for Clinton because she wasn't trump, of course it's impossible to get exact numbers for either group. I don't believe as many people would have voted for trump because he wasn't sanders. No way of verifying that obviously, but I think when you consider the fact that many ballots were cast with a "lesser of two evils" mentality, it's not inconceivable that sanders could have benefited from this, he was nowhere near as polarizing as the other 2 candidates. His platform wasn't the deciding factor in losing the nomination, he had no chance against Hilary's backing within the Democratic Party.
I look at it this way, a lot of people voted for trump because he wasn't Clinton, and a lot of people voted for Clinton because she wasn't trump, of course it's impossible to get exact numbers for either group. I don't believe as many people would have voted for trump because he wasn't sanders. No way of verifying that obviously, but I think when you consider the fact that many ballots were cast with a "lesser of two evils" mentality, it's not inconceivable that sanders could have benefited from this, he was nowhere near as polarizing as the other 2 candidates. His platform wasn't the deciding factor in losing the nomination, he had no chance against Hilary's backing within the Democratic Party.
A lot of Democrats thought Hillary would have had a greater chance at beating Trump because she was a centrist and a hawk... Bernie was left of that...
American politics have been steadily moving to the Right; This isn't simply a aberration nor change for the sake of change - this shift has been a steady as a metronome over the past 30 years.
Its a bit funny that on the one hand people argue Bernie had no chance versus Hillary because of of Democratic power brokers backing her, but on the other side, NO ONE of the GOP party did anything to support Trump? In fact, i've never seen a candidate receive less backing and more outright vitriol and ridicule as Trump received from the GOP Party establishment.
Bernie's message simply didn't resonate with the Broader Democratic base and that wasn't because he didn't have support from the Democratic establishment...In the end, the Democratic delegates were more confident in Hillary's centrist platform appealing to the moderate GOP than Bernie.
Clinton was held in poor standing with the GOP base no question, but I haven't seen anything that would make me feel that Bernie, who was even further left of Clinton's agenda, would have beaten Trump in a general election...
A lot of Democrats thought Hillary would have had a greater chance at beating Trump because she was a centrist and a hawk... Bernie was left of that...
American politics have been steadily moving to the Right; This isn't simply a aberration nor change for the sake of change - this shift has been a steady as a metronome over the past 30 years.
Its a bit funny that on the one hand people argue Bernie had no chance versus Hillary because of of Democratic power brokers backing her, but on the other side, NO ONE of the GOP party did anything to support Trump? In fact, i've never seen a candidate receive less backing and more outright vitriol and ridicule as Trump received from the GOP Party establishment.
Agreed. In retrospect, it's a credit to the GOP that in such a vitriolic and controversial primary process there were no significant accusations of manipulation by the party. The Democratic party on the other hand ended up with a lot of people feeling bitter about not just the result, but the process as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldschoolcalgary
Bernie's message simply didn't resonate with the Broader Democratic base and that wasn't because he didn't have support from the Democratic establishment...In the end, the Democratic delegates were more confident in Hillary's centrist platform appealing to the moderate GOP than Bernie.
That I don't think is true, and also reflects a big difference between Trump and Sanders. Trump was already a well-known celebrity and got an enormous amount of free press and coverage to get his message out, which not only resonated with a portion of the base but also brought in new voters. Sanders, on the other hand was basically an unknown senator receiving marginal media attention and, in terms of image, is compared to an old man sending back soup in a deli. It was only the resonance of his message that allowed him to come out of nowhere to make the primary process competitive. A lot of people liked what he had to say.
Also, the longer Sanders is around to communicate his message, the more popular he becomes across demographics, despite the fact that many of his ardent fans expressed outrage and a sense of betrayal when he endorsed Hillary. As mentioned earlier, according to an April poll he is the most liked political figure in the U.S. now. The reason the Democratic party involves him in so many events is that he's by far the most popular figure they have.
Here some of the data from that poll:
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldschoolcalgary
Clinton was held in poor standing with the GOP base no question, but I haven't seen anything that would make me feel that Bernie, who was even further left of Clinton's agenda, would have beaten Trump in a general election...
We'll never know what would have happened. It's all speculation. We can only say what did happen, and not even all of that is entirely transparent.
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"If stupidity got us into this mess, then why can't it get us out?"
I think one of Hillarys problems was that she tried to talk a lot about traditional left/right politics, when it the focus of popular politics is moving more and more towards the conservative/liberal axis and just generally towards morality politics.
The Republicans have pretty much completely surrendered their economic policies to morality politics. It's not about what's a good idea, it's about what's who "should" get something and who "should not".
This is a much watch for us politcal hounds, NPR and PBS did an investigation in to the affordable housing crisis, its got everything, brilliant piece.
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So do you actually think she and her campaign did everything right, or even did decently well?
Why do you answer questions with questions.
This is pretty simple, you're very sure the loss was Hillarys fault, so what are some key things she should have done different?
And not campaigning in Wisconsin or wherever is not an answer.
Apparently this book does a great job covering all the mistakes, missteps, it was originally called Shattered and stayed that way since its intent was about her winning and shattering the ceiling, but instead is a blow by blow of how her campaign failed.
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