Friedman: Flames ownership killed Bishop trade to Flames last summer

[Locke]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Any argument for a player that hinges on "hey, if you take out his bad season, he's good!" is a bad, bad argument.

Posters (not you specifically) are roasting Elliott for a terrible season, and turning out praise for facing adversity and forgiveness on Bishop for his terrible season. It's nonsense.

A goalie is every season he has played, period. Not just the good ones. Not just the bad ones. If you want to say Bishop averages out as a top 10 goalie since he's been a starter, sure, but he's not top 5, and he's definitely not top 3. He's had two great seasons, and two seasons where he played below the ability of the average NHL starter. That's Bishop.

And thats the exact problem we had with Elliott.

You have to have a good baseline. You have to be 'Good' to 'Excellent.'

You cant be 'complete garbage' or 'excellent.' Thats just too much of a fluctuation.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by Diemenz

Ben Bishop has a s% of .919 over the last 3 years Elliott's is .918. Statistically they are very close. Looking at a 5 year snap shot Elliott has a 2.25 GAA and Bishop has a 2.29 GAA.

Bottom line if you look at the comparison of the two statistically it would be hard to say Bishop has been the better goalie. over the last 5 years.

I actually mostly agree with you on the regular season stats. Despite his struggles this season I think he could very well bounce back to be an okay regular season goalie.

Let's take the last 5 years as you suggested.

2011-2017 Elliotts playoff stats are .913 and 2.45 GAA in 37 GP. That's 32nd and 24th out of 48 goalies with at least 4 playoff starts in that period.

2011-2017 Bishop is .927 and 2.09 in 36 GP, which is 9th and 9th.

That's is a big difference.

(Win records are 14-20 for Elliott, 21-13 for Bishop.)

I'm also not really interested in betting on Elliott having a bounceback year, even though I agree it could happen. He already had a good thing handed to him this season. The Flames were supposed to be a fresh start on a pretty good new team, and he made a mess of it. He's going to be under a lot of pressure next season wherever he plays, and it would be worst if he stays here. Maybe he can take it and maybe not, but I don't see it as a risk worth taking.

I would much rather bet on a young goalie stepping up than a veteran suddenly finding consistency at 32 under possibly the worst pressure of his career.

[Flamescuprun2018]

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

Brian Burke is the guest speaker on May 25 at the Jewish Centre Sports Dinner. There's usually a Q&A.

Am tempted to ask him publicly about Bishop and Friedman's comments re owner meddling and see how he responds in that forum.

Please do that. You are sure to get a frank and honest response. He is most likely to be more forthcoming at such an event than on tv or radio.

Lets really find out if Friedman is blowing smoke again.

[vanisleflamesfan]

Originally Posted by transplant99

It's not Ken Kings approval...its Murray Edwards.

KK is merely the messenger/go between.

Exactly... KK is just the messenger. I mean... Edwards is not always easy to get on the phone. He is very busy living over there in the UK, strenuously avoiding paying his taxes. I mean... avoiding taxes is a 24-7 job. By the way... could you stupid people who still pay taxes please pay for his new arena so that he can buy ANOTHER house in London tax free? Thanks (idiots).

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by vanisleflamesfan

Exactly... KK is just the messenger. I mean... Edwards is not always easy to get on the phone. He is very busy living over there in the UK, strenuously avoiding paying his taxes. I mean... avoiding taxes is a 24-7 job. By the way... could you stupid people who still pay taxes please pay for his new arena so that he can buy ANOTHER house in London tax free? Thanks (idiots).

Right, because it's not like they have any taxes in the U.K.

[Alberta_Beef]

Originally Posted by Flamescuprun2018

Please do that. You are sure to get a frank and honest response. He is most likely to be more forthcoming at such an event than on tv or radio.

Lets really find out if Friedman is blowing smoke again.

He can't be too frank, they are not allowed to comment publicly on players in other organizations, so if he doesn't watch what he says he risks tampering accusations.

[DiracSpike]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

Right, because it's not like they have any taxes in the U.K.

Creating a 45 billion dollar company that employs 8000 people all paying taxes isn't good enough for vannisle flames fan, I'm sure he adds way more to our economy than edwards....

[Love]

Originally Posted by EldrickOnIce

How does that equal the Oil not making the playoffs? Had the Flames swept them, they would still have finished with 95 points, caeteris paribus.

butterfly effect

[chemgear]

Originally Posted by vanisleflamesfan

Edwards is not always easy to get on the phone. He is very busy living over there in the UK, strenuously avoiding paying his taxes. I mean... avoiding taxes is a 24-7 job. By the way... could you stupid people who still pay taxes please pay for his new arena so that he can buy ANOTHER house in London tax free? Thanks (idiots).

Eh? I just ran into him in the elevator the other day.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by vanisleflamesfan

Exactly... KK is just the messenger. I mean... Edwards is not always easy to get on the phone. He is very busy living over there in the UK, strenuously avoiding paying his taxes. I mean... avoiding taxes is a 24-7 job. By the way... could you stupid people who still pay taxes please pay for his new arena so that he can buy ANOTHER house in London tax free? Thanks (idiots).

I have always felt that 'idiots' is one of those words that, when used at the wrong time, can have a far more powerful and devastating effect than intended.

[442scotty]

I'm glad ownership nixed the Bishop acquisition if that is correct... Hopefully Treliving has finally learned his lesson with the Brouwer signing... (Might have to eat these words next season but that's ok). Sign and play Rittich and ease in Gillies please!! Not all goalies need 3-4 years of AHL seasoning. (I realize Gillies missed a year and may need more seasoning)

[CliffFletcher]

Gillies has 49 professional hockey games under his belt. He missed a season of development, and next season is when he makes up for it. There's nothing to suggest he's outgrown the AHL, and at his age he needs to be playing 50 games a season, not 20. There's no way he starts the season as the backup.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by 442scotty

I'm glad ownership nixed the Bishop acquisition if that is correct... Hopefully Treliving has finally learned his lesson with the Brouwer signing... (Might have to eat these words next season but that's ok). Sign and play Rittich and ease in Gillies please!! Not all goalies need 3-4 years of AHL seasoning. (I realize Gillies missed a year and may need more seasoning)

Who is our starting goalie next year then? Shall we just piss away another year of our core players? Brodie has 3 years left before he gets paid and 2 years for Tkachuk.

[Snuffleupagus]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

Who is our starting goalie next year then? Shall we just piss away another year of our core players? Brodie has 3 years left before he gets paid and 2 years for Tkachuk.

Shall we sign an older goalie to a long term albatross contract and piss away two very good looking goalie prospects, why draft a goalie if you have no confidence in playing them? The team needs a stop gap goalie while the prospects develop nothing more.

Bishop will want and get long term about 7m.

No thanks

[Corral]

Originally Posted by DiracSpike

Creating a 45 billion dollar company that employs 8000 people all paying taxes isn't good enough for vannisle flames fan, I'm sure he adds way more to our economy than edwards....

I don't know how much you know about building a corporation - but lets not pretend Edwards built a 45 billion dollar company with his own blood and sweat or that he thinks even a microsecond about the 8000 people employed at CNRL.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Corral

I don't know how much you know about building a corporation - but lets not pretend Edwards built a 45 billion dollar company with his own blood and sweat or that he thinks even a microsecond about the 8000 people employed at CNRL.

Not....not sure if serious.

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

Shall we sign an older goalie to a long term albatross contract and piss away two very good looking goalie prospects, why draft a goalie if you have no confidence in playing them? The team needs a stop gap goalie while the prospects develop nothing more.

Bishop will want and get long term about 7m.

No thanks

It's moot now because Bishop is more than likely gonzo, but good young goalies don't get "pissed away".

They either force their way onto the roster or are traded for a nice return.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Corral

I don't know how much you know about building a corporation - but lets not pretend Edwards built a 45 billion dollar company with his own blood and sweat or that he thinks even a microsecond about the 8000 people employed at CNRL.

It's been a while but I've been in a few meetings over transactions with Edwards, including where he was taking on a new venture and new employees. I pause to add that I'm not a cold blooded capitalist, and am more left of centre.

That said, in my experience, Edwards puts a tonne of work into his companies. He wasn't born wealthy, like, say Trump. He was decidedly middle class and worked to get his degrees and later his merchant banking business. He makes shrewd purchases and puts a lot of effort into turning them around (and doesn't flip them like a vulture fund). While he is a guy who doesn't give up a dollar easily or leave a bunch of money on the table, he is fair and doesn't undervalue employees. He's actually a liberal minded guy, for a venture capitalist.

As for his move, you don't move from Calgary to London to save money, either in taxes or in living costs. The reason was purely personal, nothing to do with business.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by bigrangy

Almost hoping for ownership to make good on their move threats

The eventual replacement Calgary team would be better off without them

Yah, we are so hard done by having an ownership group who spends to the cap year after year.

Some peoples reactions to this are amazing. I'm not saying it might not be a little frustrating, or that it means some of the things end up costing us on ice. But what business doesn't an owner get a say in what goes on and how money is spent. I sure hope they are leaving as much of the hockey decisions as possible to Tre and Burke, but in every business owners will wander in and have a say on how their money is spent.

What's key is how often are they micromanaging the hockey people they hired to spend their hockey investments wisely. Hopefully not too too often.

[Snuffleupagus]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

It's moot now because Bishop is more than likely gonzo, but good young goalies don't get "pissed away".

They either force their way onto the roster or are traded for a nice return.

How does a young goalie force his way past a veteran keeper signed long term, for big money and likely has a NMC? and what nice return do you get before they walk because they haven't had the chance?

Some of the top goalies in the league didn't get much of anything in return when their original team traded them.

Bobrovsky, Rask, Dubnyk, Talbot, Jones. the list goes on and on.

It's totally ridiculous to draft a goalie, watch him develop into a star in the lower leagues and then give them little to no chance at the NHL level.