[News] Flames sign Treliving to multi year contract extension

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

The fact of the matter is, goaltending is a huge weakness with the Flames, and the goaltending coach has to be held responsible for that. Time for Sigalet to find a new job. I don't think he's the biggest problem (quality of the players is), but he has to wear the horns.

He doesn't have to wear the horns actually. Assigning blame on the basis of a surface level understanding of his job and how he performed in it would be bad decision making.
Rather I would expect and hope they are doing a much deeper look at his body of work and asking if he's the right guy.
And that may mean he isn't.
But one shouldn't make that conclusion absent better information.
I'm not saying he shouldn't be let go. I'm not saying he should be.
I'm saying we don't know enough to say either way in such absolute terms.

[JiriHrdina]

For those keeping track:
- The Treliving thread is about goaltending and the goaltending coach
- The Jankowski thread is about everything EXCEPT Jankowski
- Every other thread is about Jankowski

[The Fonz]

Originally Posted by Fighting Banana Slug

Sorry for the delayed response, but the confusion from the insider stems, entirely it seems, from the fact that it isn't normally done this way.

I have a hard time believing that Friedman would have reported the situation as he did, simply because "it isn't normally done this way".

I think it's a lot more likely that these insiders have knowledge that they cannot share on TV/Radio, but can still use that knowledge to speculate as to what's happening or what may happen.

[PeteMoss]

Literally no one knows what value a goalie coach has or doesn't have.

People bring up Brodeur turning around Allen but does that mean the old coach was bad or just a coincidence? I mean Corsi was there for years prior when Elliott and Allen both had great stats.

[Itse]

Since we're again talking Sigalet and player development, I took a quick look around the league for comparison on how often do teams develop goalies. (Last 20 years, 100 games played or more, drafted by the team.)

It seems that the spread is 1 to 3 goalies developed per team in that time. In other words, the differences are too small to mean anything statistically.

Btw, didn't know we originally drafted Craig Anderson. (But never signed him.)

[Itse]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

He doesn't have to wear the horns actually. Assigning blame on the basis of a surface level understanding of his job and how he performed in it would be bad decision making.
Rather I would expect and hope they are doing a much deeper look at his body of work and asking if he's the right guy.

I wonder if the Flames are really capable of a "deeper look" that's truly meaningful.

I already pondered this in another thread, but goaltending is a very specified position, which has developed quite a bit in the last 5-15 years, as have the coaching methods.

In other words, it wouldn't surprise me if the only people in the organization qualified to judge the work of goalie coaches are the goalie coaches and to some extent the goalies.

The Flames of course have access to more detailed statistics than we do, but I'm not sure those can provide really meaningful results, given the short timeframe and the number of other variables involved. (Different head coaches, different goalies.)

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

Isn't the job of a goaltending coach to help develop unproven goaltenders? What's the point of having one otherwise?

Heat have their own goaltending coach, as does every other development team.

[getbak]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

The fact that Trevor Kidd, Leland Irving and others didn't pan out really is moot.

I wouldn't say that Irving's development is moot with regards to Sigalet.

Sigalet was the Heat's goalie coach for Irving's last two seasons in the organization. Those two seasons saw a significant decline in Irving's performance and he went from looking like Kipper's heir apparent to playing in Finland in 2013.


Obviously, it's tough for us to judge how much of Irving's struggles can be pinned to Sigalet. The man has survived 6 seasons in the organization, so he's done enough to keep management satisfied with his quality of work. On the other hand, it's a results-driven business and he has to be judged on the results.

The question is, what is the judgement of those results? The Heat and Flames have made the playoffs in 4 of the 6 seasons that Sigalet has been the goalie coach and won a playoff round in 2 of those 4 seasons. Those are good results. However, goaltending performance has been very inconsistent during his time. At what point do the Flames decide to change the one thing that has been consistent with the goaltending?

[trublmaker]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

Literally no one knows what value a goalie coach has or doesn't have.

People bring up Brodeur turning around Allen but does that mean the old coach was bad or just a coincidence? I mean Corsi was there for years prior when Elliott and Allen both had great stats.

The goal position is odd for team sport because you're basically alone, I think a head doctor would be more helpful.

[TheFlamesVan]

Hard to get good, steady, long term goaltending. I think you could look at most teams with a history that lacks success, and compare their goaltending history to Calgarys. 1-3 good solid starters in team history.

[GGG]

On sigalet can anyone make a case that he has made our goal tending better? I don't see any evidence that he is above a replacement caliber coach. So after six years in a job it should be easy to see the value. If not time to try someone else

[Alberta_Beef]

Originally Posted by nik-

What goalie has improved? An occasional success story might be nice.

Sigalet was the goalie coach that actually got Ortio to the elvel he was playing at to even get a shot in the NHL

[Gaskal]

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

Sigalet was the goalie coach that actually got Ortio to the elvel he was playing at to even get a shot in the NHL

And then immediately cratered and ran back home to Finland, so kinda moot there.

[Alberta_Beef]

Originally Posted by Gaskal

And then immediately cratered and ran back home to Finland, so kinda moot there.

He was a long shot to ever even make the NHL, the fact he ever made it at all is impressive.

[btimbit]

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

He was a long shot to ever even make the NHL, the fact he ever made it at all is impressive.

That year he spent time in the ECHL then had a nice stretch with the Flames really impressed me

[Calgary4LIfe]

As fans, goalie coaches are one of the toughest jobs to gauge from a distance. What is being said? What if the goalie just isn't responding to what the coach says?

We likely have no idea whether a goalie coach is good or bad. The good news on this? Sometimes when a goalie coach is bad, former players will complain as has happened on a few other teams. I haven't heard a peep of that towards Sigalet. In fact, the only peep I have heard at all was from Ramo in this article, in which he agreed with the adjustments that Sigalet suggested and said himself that it seemed to be paying off, and then started showing in his stats:

http://www.flamesfrom80feet.ca/2016/...stment-to.html

Proof that the adjustment has worked can be found in the numbers. At the end of November, Ramo's save percentage was .899 and six times he had surrendered at least four goals. Since the start of December, he's posted a .930 save percentage and given up four goals in a game only once.

"By being a little deeper in his net now, it allows him to come across his net more controlled, more calm and compact and it's made a big difference in his game, especially in his rebound recovery," said Sigalet. "Even last game, the rebound when Max Domi had that great chance. Because he was a little bit deeper on the original shot, it was a lot easier for him to get across and make that second save."

We have to remember that there are exit interviews for players. That's a lot of goalies that have been let go over the last few seasons. I am sure they would have no problem letting the Flames know that Sigalet was a problem, or didn't help matters, or whatever it was. The fact that Sigalet is still around in the organization makes me believe he is (rightly or wrongly) more well thought of than not.

Who knows? Maybe Treliving makes a change this season, maybe he doesn't. All I am saying is that we as fans are speculating without any real information. We have no visibility on what Sigalet is really doing with the goalies, what adjustments (other than that one single one I posted above) is being asked of the goalies (and if they are following-through on adjustments or not), how good of a head-shrink he is with them, etc.

All we see is a bunch of goalies that haven't panned out.

My personal theory? In a way, maybe it is like what Dubynk was facing in Edmonton. Coming into the league, Dubynk was a fairly well thought of prospect, and he did fairly well at first. Then he started declining over the years there to the point that he really couldn't stop that proverbial beach ball. Why did that happen? Because of the goalie coach giving him poor instructions? It was actually because he started not trusting the team in front of him, and continually felt the need to over-compensate on shots and angles, thinking that the skaters wouldn't be in proper position to help him out on rebounds, or would pick up the opposing team's trailer for that cross-ice pass.

Flames do have a propensity to somehow allow prime opportunity chances. Elliott was garbage to start the season, but so were the Flames at playing defence. When the Flames tightened up a bit more, Elliott suddenly found a resurgence on the Flames, and backstopped them solidly into the playoffs.

I think goaltending and defensive acumen are more interrelated than the goalie coach, to be honest.

Think of it this way. The goalie doesn't HAVE to listen to the goalie coach. Neither Elliott nor Johnson were fresh rookies who would blindly follow the instructions of a goalie coach for fear of not playing another game. They were two very established goalies in the league (whether starter or backup, they have both been around for a while, and I would consider them both established veteran goalies). If Sigalet wasn't helping (or, at the very least, giving them instructions that they disagreed with) Sigalet probably would have been canned by now, and there might be a good chance that we would have heard something by now.

I am not saying Sigalet deserves to stay or deserves to be let go. I am just saying that we as fans probably don't have an ounce of visibility in the situation, and simply formulate our own opinions on way too limited information. He may be fantastic, or he may be horrible. We as fans have little to no insight either way, as we have no idea what he is trying to get them to do or what his suggestions are.

[Alberta_Beef]

Great post C4L

[Huntingwhale]

“When you do a report card on a GM, there are certain things that you have to look at — draft, trades, free-agent signings, culture, media, community service and corporate support would be the primary ones,” Burke said. “If you look, he’s drafted extremely well. He’s made some marvellous trades. Free-agent signings, he’s made a couple of mistakes but, by and large, added solid players at sensible prices and term.

“I think when you give Brad Treliving a report card, in my mind, he’s at the top of his class of the guys that were hired when he was hired. So he deserves this extension.

“This is a relationship business, and he worked at building sound relationships with the other 29 GMs, the other 30 now with Vegas coming in,” Burke praised. “Right from Day 1, he placed a premium on that. He said, ‘This is the group I have to make deals with, this is the group I have to work with on an hourly basis,’ so he invested an incredible amount of time in relationship-building early on. He knew all the guys, but just establishing relationships.

http://www.calgarysun.com/2017/05/02...-excellent-job

[Flaming Choy]

Originally Posted by Yamer

....

All he ever said was:
1. The Flames and Treliving do not have an agreement in place.
2. This isn't a typical way of doing business in the league regarding management and staff.
3. He thinks there is a continual fit for Treliving and the Flames.
4. Unsure why it isn't done at this point: could be the Flames holding it up, could be Treliving.
5. However, given the circumstances there is reason to believe he may not be back next season.

Where in any of that is sensationalism or mis-reporting? How is anything said or written so outlandish that you now distrust Friedman because he applied his expert, analytical opinion on the situation? Suddenly these comments have been transformed into him outright saying Treliving isn't coming back and there's trouble in the hen house. He never said that.

I'm not understanding the outrage here. Although I would be understanding if Friedman goes back to denying interviews on the Fan and sticking to comments on his 30 Thoughts pieces.

His opinion on this situation was totally reasonable given the unusual circumstances, and I still value and respect him as the upper echelon of NHL and hockey knowledge.

*not a response to you, Yamer, just quoting your post for additional context*

Friedman was just on the Marek Vs. Wyshynski podcast. He was thinking that Murray Edwards didn't like extending people, saying Hartley was paid $2.2 million this year not to coach. Oil and Gas is doing bad right now, doesn't want to lose $. He wanted to change how the Flames do business and not decide to extend people until their contracts are nearly up, to avoid paying people you are going to let go. He said it's a very different way to do business, no one else does it that way. Flames knew there was a risk of losing Tre this way. He believes that they didn't behind talking contract until last weekend. Also brought up again that 50 people in Hockey Ops had their contracts up as well.


I think that this could work if the GM is particularly strong and focused on the job, and has confidence in himself that he will have a job, but if there is any doubt, then it could really mess up the team. In general I'd like GM to have certainty in their future so they can plan for the future of team effectively.

[TheFlamesVan]

I'm not the General Manager of an NHL team, and I still give it 100% each day of my two weeks notice at a job. The thought that these professionals, most of which have been involved in the league for some time and have no plans on leaving it, would not live up to their day to day duties with 2 months left on the job is ridiculous.

[Robbob]

Listening to Burke and Treliving, both pretty much said that they both wanted the extension, but waited to after the season to get it done. More or less a hand shake deal that it would get done after the season and it did. The interesting thing is in that 590 interview there was a question asked about FA with a GM on his last year. Burke mentioned that Brouwer may have asked Burke about Treliving's status and at that time they said he isn't going anywhere.

I also think that 50 contracts for hockey ops may be a bit bloated as it probably includes some staff associated with Adirondack, which they sold and will not be operating anymore.