[News] Flames sign Treliving to multi year contract extension

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

Isn't the job of a goaltending coach to develop unproven goaltenders? What's the point of having one otherwise?

No I don't think that's their job.
I don't know how much time he splits between the prospects and NHL goalies but my assumption would be the bulk of his job is with the NHL guys.
Therefore no I wouldn't say that is his job.

I assume his job is to help maximize the performance of the goalies in the NHL, identifying areas to improve and help them to be prepared for their games, promoting strong practice habits to than try to replicate in a game.

But no I don't think his job is to turn chicken poop into chicken salad.

[Toonage]

For one its to fine tune and adjust playing and playing style. (where you hold your glove, how you position yourself, etc)

ie: When Johnson kept getting beat glove side from January on, there was no adjustment. That (from an outside perspective) is on the goalie coach.

[PepsiFree]

In line with what some others are saying, our goalie troubles may not be development or coaching related at all, it may simply be a case of poor drafting. With Gillies and Parsons coming along maybe things suddenly look better, but what studs did we draft before that?

Maybe it was just a matter of the Flames development and coaching being like lipstick on a pig. You can't make gold out of copper.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

If they can improve on Sigalet, I'm all for it. But as I've said before, when you look at the list of goalies Sigalet has had to work with since he's been in the Flames organization, it's nothing more than a bunch of "has been's" and "never will's".

Hard to take the results from a list of goalies like that and blame the goalie coach. Sometimes the talent is just fading, or not there.

Elliott had one of the highest Save Percentages in the League prior to coming here, now I cant blame Sigalet, but going from that to what we got was crazy.

I have a hard time blaming the goalie coach, I really do, because Elliott was either amazing or terrible and I dont see how that relates to his coach.

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Given the changes to management, scouting and coaching over the years - this type of long-term review isn't really relevant.
The current regime can only be evaluated on the basis of what happens with the current stable of tending prospects.
The fact that Trevor Kidd, Leland Irving and others didn't pan out really is moot.

It is a fair point to bring up that the failures of past management teams are not relevant. Also, admittedly I don't know every member of the Flames goaltending development system, or who was hired when.

That being said, it is clearly a problem that the Flames haven't produced NHL talent at that position. Moreover, the Flames might not find success until this problem is addressed.

I wont claim to have a solution, and it certainly wont be as simple as firing Sigalet. I just hope that the Flames management team invests what ever it takes to start producing quality net minders.

[TheAlpineOracle]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

No I don't think that's their job.
I don't know how much time he splits between the prospects and NHL goalies but my assumption would be the bulk of his job is with the NHL guys.
Therefore no I wouldn't say that is his job.

I assume his job is to help maximize the performance of the goalies in the NHL, identifying areas to improve and help them to be prepared for their games, promoting strong practice habits to than try to replicate in a game.

But no I don't think his job is to turn chicken poop into chicken salad.

Ortio was hardly chicken poop. This guy appeared to have potential based on all the scouts and past performances. Sigalet did nothing to make it come to the surface, and it looks like Ortio actually got worse as time went on. How is that not on him?

Ramo, I'd place that on Hartley and not Sigalet. He clearly favoured Hiller even when Ramo was substantially out playing him from time to time. I don't think this was a great environment for Ramo.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

Ortio was hardly chicken poop. This guy appeared to have potential based on all the scouts and past performances. Sigalet did nothing to make it come to the surface, and it looks like Ortio actually got worse as time went on. How is that not on him?
.

Ortio's past performance was riddled with inconsistency.
And where is he now?
If he had any sort of potential, he would be in an NHL system.

Ortio was a guy that was highly regarded by Flames fans but outside of that - was a long shot to become an NHL goalie. It shouldn't be a surprise that he didn't make it.

[Erick Estrada]

Burke is not stranger to goaltending coach controversy as remember in Toronto when Francois Allaire quit before he got fired and Burke blasted him;

“I regret that I have to deal with this matter publicly but I feel the need to respond. Was there interference from the staff as he said there was? Yes. But it was done reluctantly and it was done to change elements of our goaltending that was subpar,” Burke told the website.

It should be noted that Rick St. Croix was the replacement and he was fired and replaced by Steve Briere. Right or wrong goaltending coaches get singled out when goaltender performance is deemed subpar. I'm sure Burke has had an opinion on this matter with the Flames and there's been discussions regarding what changes they can make.

[Phaneufenstein]

Burke on Fan 590 right now.

http://player.sportsnet590.ca/

[TheAlpineOracle]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Ortio's past performance was riddled with inconsistency.
And where is he now?
If he had any sort of potential, he would be in an NHL system.

Ortio was a guy that was highly regarded by Flames fans but outside of that - was a long shot to become an NHL goalie. It shouldn't be a surprise that he didn't make it.

So we have a goaltending coach and we have a long list of goalies underneath his watch without even considering the AHL that struggle with consistency (Ortio, Hiller, Ramo, Elliott, Johnson) and he shouldn't be considered responsible for that? What the hell is his job then?

I will admit it's not like he's been handed much to work with (i've hated the Elliott signing since day 1 last year), but each and every one of our goalies at the NHL seems to have regressed under his watch. It's time for him to go, and he'll have trouble getting another goaltending coaching gig at the NHL level.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

So we have a goaltending coach and we have a long list of goalies underneath his watch without even considering the AHL that struggle with consistency (Ortio, Hiller, Ramo, Elliott, Johnson) and he shouldn't be considered responsible for that? What the hell is his job then?

I will admit it's not like he's been handed much to work with (i've hated the Elliott signing since day 1 last year), but each and every one of our goalies at the NHL seems to have regressed under his watch. It's time for him to go, and he'll have trouble getting another goaltending coaching gig at the NHL level.

Ortio had his best AHL season with Sigalet and his best NHL season under Sigalet.
Ramo also had his best NHL season under Sigalet.
Johnson's season was lower than last, but much better than the season before.
Hiller had his best season since 2010-11 under Sigalet.

Actually looking at it, I'm not sure that Sigalet isn't the reason these guys are doing as well as they are, instead of completely flopping. The fact that he got good performances out of Ramo, Ortio, and Hiller, all of whom were nobodies and has-beens before and are now out of the league, is impressive. The fact that he couldn't stretch those good performances out hardly seems like his fault.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Ortio had his best AHL season with Sigalet and his best NHL season under Sigalet.
Ramo also had his best NHL season under Sigalet.
Johnson's season was lower than last, but much better than the season before.
Hiller had his best season since 2010-11 under Sigalet.

Actually looking at it, I'm not sure that Sigalet isn't the reason these guys are doing as well as they are, instead of completely flopping. The fact that he got good performances out of Ramo, Ortio, and Hiller, all of whom were nobodies and has-beens before and are now out of the league, is impressive. The fact that he couldn't stretch those good performances out hardly seems like his fault.

Okay....as much as I dont like laying blame at the feet of a coach its equally absurd to attribute that much success. Hes not the one out there stopping pucks.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Ortio had his best AHL season with Sigalet and his best NHL season under Sigalet.
Ramo also had his best NHL season under Sigalet.
Johnson's season was lower than last, but much better than the season before.
Hiller had his best season since 2010-11 under Sigalet.

Actually looking at it, I'm not sure that Sigalet isn't the reason these guys are doing as well as they are, instead of completely flopping. The fact that he got good performances out of Ramo, Ortio, and Hiller, all of whom were nobodies and has-beens before and are now out of the league, is impressive. The fact that he couldn't stretch those good performances out hardly seems like his fault.

Fair points except saying Ortio had his best NHL season under Sigalet - that's 6 games, right?

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Fair points except saying Ortio had his best NHL season under Sigalet - that's 6 games, right?

Oh, true. Very small sample size for Ortio. He played 9 games, then 6, then 22. His last two (under Sigalet) were better than his first. None of the three were impressive anyway.

Was .926 in the AHL when Sigalet was there though. Once Sigalet moved up to the NHL (the next season) he dropped to .912 in the AHL (which was the same season he had his best six games in the NHL, with Sigalet).

[TheAlpineOracle]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Oh, true. Very small sample size for Ortio. He played 9 games, then 6, then 22. His last two (under Sigalet) were better than his first. None of the three were impressive anyway.

Was .926 in the AHL when Sigalet was there though. Once Sigalet moved up to the NHL (the next season) he dropped to .912 in the AHL (which was the same season he had his best six games in the NHL, with Sigalet).

You can make the same argument the other way.

Ortio had only one full season with Sigalet in Abottsford which was his really good year. So it's pretty easy to just as easily say is that his career trajectory went downhill as soon as Sigalet got involved. Ortio also seems to have had himself quite a great year over in Sweden this year as well (granted it's not the NHL).

Same argument can be said for Ramo and Hiller. Came here and played decent and started to decline under Sigalet's watch.

The fact of the matter is, goaltending is a huge weakness with the Flames, and the goaltending coach has to be held responsible for that. Time for Sigalet to find a new job. I don't think he's the biggest problem (quality of the players is), but he has to wear the horns.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

You can make the same argument the other way.

Ortio had only one full season with Sigalet in Abottsford which was his really good year. So it's pretty easy to just as easily say is that his career trajectory went downhill as soon as Sigalet got involved. Ortio also seems to have had himself quite a great year over in Sweden this year as well (granted it's not the NHL).

Same argument can be said for Ramo and Hiller. Came here and played decent and started to decline under Sigalet's watch.

The fact of the matter is, goaltending is a huge weakness with the Flames, and the goaltending coach has to be held responsible for that. Time for Sigalet to find a new job. I don't think he's the biggest problem (quality of the players is), but he has to wear the horns.

No, you really can't. There's not enough data to show a trend of steady decline. Most goaltenders have found success and failure with Sigalet, you're imagining a trend that just isn't there. It's easy, I get it, to just think "hey, goalies get worse, Sigalet must be the reason" but then why do they get better when he becomes their goalie coach? Your reasoning just doesn't make sense.

I'm not saying he's the answer, I just don't think he's the problem.

As far as the SHL goes, I'd be surprised if you recognise a single one of the name of the 7-8 goaltenders ahead of Ortio stats wise. His stats are there are not impressive from an NHL equivalence perspective.

[Fighting Banana Slug]

Originally Posted by Yamer

Point #2 was all the justification he needed for speculation.

It might justify speculation, but it is just that, speculation. It isn't actual "insider" knowledge, just a guess. A wrong guess as it turns out.

[Fighting Banana Slug]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

...and they never would publicly. It's a negotiation, they don't do that in the public eye.

From Dreger, Friedman, McKenzie - a number of people who we traditionally listen to and trust as insiders all voiced similar confusion regarding the situation.

Just because they got a deal done, does not mean the process was silky smooth.

Sorry for the delayed response, but the confusion from the insider stems, entirely it seems, from the fact that it isn't normally done this way. Fair point, but jumping to the conclusion that either the Flames didn't want Treliving, or Treliving didn't want the Flames isn't based on "insider" information. Quite the opposite, it was pure speculation. If it was June 28 and no contract, go nuts with that speculation, but 2 months in advance of "free agency"? Why should we be concerned? This isn't a 5 year passport, where you need to renew in 4.5 years (which belongs in the gear grinder).

[Roof-Daddy]

Burke Audio From 590 Today

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

So we have a goaltending coach and we have a long list of goalies underneath his watch without even considering the AHL that struggle with consistency (Ortio, Hiller, Ramo, Elliott, Johnson) and he shouldn't be considered responsible for that? What the hell is his job then?

So goalies with a history of being inconsistent continued to be inconsistent so that's his fault?