[News] New Arena - Plan B - Victoria Park

[Barnes]

Originally Posted by IamNotKenKing

They never, ever asked for that, never mind expected it.

Just like me asking you to buy a car and I'll drive it for x number of years but you'll own it is not like me asking you to give me a car.

[frinkprof]

Originally Posted by Ducay

Thanks - Is there any good article/site that outlines by block/parcel the current owner? I know many ASP's from the city highlight the owners, etc, but couldn't find one for this area.

Wonder what exactly CMLC owns versus what Stampede owns.

Technically CMLC doesn't "own" anything, they are the arm's length development management group for the City, and have also been engaged by the Stampede for their lands.

The other big landowner in the area is Remington, who owns the lands north of 11th Avenue and east of 4th Street up to the Victoria Park Transit Centre, as well as between 9th Avenue and the CPR tracks. They had a conceptual vision for those lands called "Railtown" that included mostly high rise residential and commercial retail and entertainment uses on the south portion, office on the north and a pedestrian bridge over the CPR tracks at 6th Street East.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by getbak

What? None of that is true.

As already discussed a few times, the land in question is the same size as the Prudential Center in Newark (both arena and practice rink). The Entertainment District would be built up around the new arena. It wouldn't have to fit within those two blocks. Over a decade ago, the Stampede unveiled plans to build an Entertainment District along 4th Street.

The Green Line C-Train will almost-certainly have a station within a block of the new arena, quite likely underground. The distance from the Victoria Park C-Train station to the new arena would be almost identical as the walk from the C-Train to the Saddledome. There's already a +15 that goes through the BMO Centre and Casino that would likely be extended right into the new building. Even if it weren't extended, it would be about 100m from the Casino front door to the arena.

Ottawa's only "mass transit" service to the arena is bus service that drops people off at least 100m from the arena.

You sure about that? The Prudential Center sits on a site that is 858,000 square feet. In comparison the Saddledome sits on a site that is 474,000 square feet. Something doesn't jive in your estimation. Also, when is the green line going to be built again? Is it even out of planning? Any line that requires walking outside, like the current setup, seems third rate. And sorry, forgot about Ottawa.

[monkeyman]

Originally Posted by IamNotKenKing

They never, ever asked for that, never mind expected it.

http://forum.calgarypuck.com/showthread.php?t=161714

[getbak]

Things haven't come together as quickly as they thought when things were first announced, but the Stampede has been slowly chipping away at things...

Spoiler!

They've done a lot of work on the east side of the river with Enmax Park and the new Indian Village. The new Ag Events Centre has gone up over the last few years. The Youth Campus is going up now.

The Stampede Trail development never really made sense to build until the arena plan is finalized anyway.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Wait...what?

You think the Flames are still going to pony up 450 Million?

I seriously doubt that's the case.

I think they will, and I'm not suggesting the city will not put anything in. The city's contribution will be free land and infrastructure upgrades that will amount to somewhere between $100-150 million. I know they want the Edmonton deal, but that isn't happening. Unfortunately Edmonton is no good as we know, and as we're seeing in reports from reporters and fans, the Rogers Place experience is at the absolute best marginally better than the Rexall experience, while being 30-50% more expensive and squeezing out the average fan. As people here see that, it's not going to make throwing several hundred million into an arena more palatable. Infrastructure and land is more than fair.

[getbak]

Originally Posted by New Era

You sure about that? The Prudential Center sits on a site that is 858,000 square feet. In comparison the Saddledome sits on a site that is 474,000 square feet. Something doesn't jive in your estimation.

Measure it for yourself: https://goo.gl/maps/h8gZA9dJcys

The Prudential Center is 150m east-west and 200m north-south.


Here's Calgary: https://goo.gl/maps/ZXpNsi1CkKN2

12th Ave to 14th Ave is 200m, 4th St to 5th St is 150m.

[Bunk]

Originally Posted by New Era

You sure about that? The Prudential Center sits on a site that is 858,000 square feet. In comparison the Saddledome sits on a site that is 474,000 square feet. Something doesn't jive in your estimation. Also, when is the green line going to be built again? Is it even out of planning? Any line that requires walking outside, like the current setup, seems third rate. And sorry, forgot about Ottawa.

Green line is on a roughly similar timeline as the arena.

Also the point of having a district is that complimentary uses exist around the arena. It's good to have some small distance to travel through it from main points of access like an LRT station, rather than put you right in the building.

It's only miserable when the public environment is desolate like it is today. Create a bustling, pedestrian friendly, active human place and it's amazing how more comfortable it becomes, even in the cold weather.

[Bunk]

Originally Posted by getbak

Things haven't come together as quickly as they thought when things were first announced, but the Stampede has been slowly chipping away at things...

Spoiler!

They've done a lot of work on the east side of the river with Enmax Park and the new Indian Village. The new Ag Events Centre has gone up over the last few years. The Youth Campus is going up now.

The Stampede Trail development never really made sense to build until the arena plan is finalized anyway.

It's really good that's CMLC is taking over Victoria Park/Stampede redevelopment. This was never Stampede's core competency (similarly with CSEC driving the arena project). The experts have taken over now and we'll all benefit from this fact.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by getbak

Measure it for yourself: https://goo.gl/maps/h8gZA9dJcys

The Prudential Center is 150m east-west and 200m north-south.


Here's Calgary: https://goo.gl/maps/ZXpNsi1CkKN2

12th Ave to 14th Ave is 200m, 4th St to 5th St is 150m.

Pretty tight. Looks like it's too small to me, and I seriously doubt that the Flames or the City want a building that come right up to the street on all four sides. Doesn't seem to fit the vision of anyone. Not even going to be close to the size of Rogers Place. C=NG?

[Bunk]

Here's the size breakdown from the presentation. Plenty of room.

[Joborule]

Originally Posted by New Era

Pretty tight. Looks like it's too small to me, and I seriously doubt that the Flames or the City want a building that come right up to the street on all four sides. Doesn't seem to fit the vision of anyone. Not even going to be close to the size of Rogers Place. C=NG?

The size isn't an issue at all. For reference, Bell Centre is 150 length, 110m width. Meanwhile Rogers Arena is 130 in length 100 in width.

There's plenty enough space there to get it done, and probably fit a practice rink too. Doesn't need to take up a whole entire section of downtown.

[KootenayFlamesFan]

Originally Posted by sureLoss

Annalise Klingbeil @AnnaliseAK
"We're behind the clock now. We have been for some time in terms of our business plans and what we need to do," says King. #yyccc

For some reason this quote really bugged me.

Who's fault was that? And wasn't the original site in need of clean up that would take a long time?

Seems like whenever King opens his mouth lately he's saying something that's annoying me.

[psicodude]

I have mixed feelings about plan B. I get that this site makes more sense because of the green line and that it's pretty much ready to go. I appreciate that there is a vision for the entire Stampede Park/East Village area that will result in that area being used more than a handful of days per year. I also get that the West Village isn't going to be developed in my lifetime. Fair enough.

My problem is that I just don't trust the Stampede board. I'm not entirely sure how the relationship between the Stampede and the Flames would work, but I'm scared that the Stampede people will want to exercise a huge amount of control over the project, which will slow progress to a crawl. I'm scared that they are going to try to dictate how the arena gets built, how it will look (more cowboys!), and basically try to take over.

I guess I'm just really worried that the two groups will argue over details for the next 5 years and the Flames will get so mad that they decide to build the new arena beside Cross Iron Mills. Please, someone tell me that this isn't the case and the land swap means the Flames will have control over that parcel of land.

[Bunk]

^ without CMLC, I'd have that worry too. In fact it wouldn't have ever gotten this far. I also believe Brad Stevens at the City is a really good asset here. His greatest strength is special, high priority assignments like this.

I believe strongly this is going to work for everyone - if that has any meaning for you.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Available field surface size of arenas around the league.

Honda Center (Anaheim) - 650,000 sq ft / 60,000 sq meters
TD Garden (Boston) - 755,000 sq ft / 70,100 sq meters
KeyBank Center (Buffalo) - 700,000 sq ft / 65,000 sq meters
Scotiabank Saddledome (Calgary) - 474,000 sq ft / 44,000 sq meters
PNC Arena (Carolina) - 700,000 sq ft / 65,000 sq meters
United Center (Chicago) - 960,000 sq ft / 89,000 sq meters
Pepsi Center (Colorado) - 975,000 sq ft / 90,600 sq meters
American Airlines Center (Dallas) - 840,000 sq ft / 78,000 sq meters
Xcel Energy Center (Minnesota) - 650,000 sq ft / 60,000 sq meters
Bell Centre (Montreal) - 780,000 sq ft / 72,000 sq meters
Bridgestone Arena (Nashville) - 750,000 sq ft / 70,000 sq meters
Prudential Center (Devils) - 858,000 sq ft / 79,700 sq meters
Madison Square Garden (Rangers) - 820,000 sq ft / 76,000 sq meters
Canadian Tire Centre (Ottawa) - 600,000 sq ft / 56,000 sq meters
PPG Paints Arena (Pittsburgh) - 720,000 sq ft / 67,000 sq meters
SAP Center (San Jose) - 450,000 sq ft / 42,000 sq meters
Scottrade Center (St. Louis) - 665,000 sq ft / 61,800 sq meters
Amalie Arena (Tampa) - 600,000 sq ft / 56,000 sq meters
Rogers Arena (Vancouver) - 475,000 sq ft / 44,100 sq meters
Verizon Center (Washington) - 1,020,000 sq ft / 95,000 sq meters

[Roughneck]

Originally Posted by psicodude

My problem is that I just don't trust the Stampede board. I'm not entirely sure how the relationship between the Stampede and the Flames would work, but I'm scared that the Stampede people will want to exercise a huge amount of control over the project, which will slow progress to a crawl. I'm scared that they are going to try to dictate how the arena gets built, how it will look (more cowboys!), and basically try to take over.

I don't know what the Flames have done to give you the impression they're any better at speedy design and development given their lack of doing anything for the past decade regarding an arena until they came out with a half-assed one, because I feel them and the Stampede are two-peas in a pod.

CMLC dictating the project would be in everybody's best interest.

I guess I'm just really worried that the two groups will argue over details for the next 5 years and the Flames will get so mad that they decide to build the new arena beside Cross Iron Mills. Please, someone tell me that this isn't the case and the land swap means the Flames will have control over that parcel of land.

Nobody is going to believe a bluff of building an arena out there so they'd just leave before it ever came to that.

[Roughneck]

Originally Posted by New Era

Bell Centre (Montreal) - 780,000 sq ft / 72,000 sq meters

The building covers an area of 1.568 hectares or 3.87 acres (15,680 square metres or 168,778 square feet).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_Centre

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Roughneck

The building covers an area of 1.568 hectares or 3.87 acres (15,680 square metres or 168,778 square feet).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_Centre

You are aware that there is more to an arena footprint than just the actual arena? What about service area? You know, like when deliveries are made, or concert staging is done, or extra service equipment needs to be in place near the building? What about parking? You know, where the thousands of paying fans need to leave their vehicles when they come to the game? But hey, you can cut out arenas in photoshop and past them on a google maps screen capture, so that's all that matters. Don't need any of that other space that it appears every single arena in the world needs.

[IamNotKenKing]

Originally Posted by monkeyman

http://forum.calgarypuck.com/showthread.php?t=161714

Sorry, but I sincerely don't follow.

The post I was responding to was someone stating CSEC was asking for the entire West Village to be gifted to them, so they could then build not only CalgaryNEXT, but also take advantage of all surrounding land.
That was never sought.