As the core stands now, do you believe it has cup potential?

[Firebot]

Originally Posted by Par

Very true but I don't think Lazar or Shinkaruk has been given time to play on the big team because he have some ####ty players that need to be played because of contracts.

As for Monahan, he has play more physical, he has the size, by physical, I don't mean drop the gloves, I mean play with more intensity, we will see how he does against the Ducks, a huge test for all the team. These playoffs will give us a good idea of where the team stands and what need to be addressed going forward.

The problem with Monahan is he is not physical both on offence and defence. He had more hits in his rookie year in less games than 3 years later (42 vs 34).

Heck Lazar is credited with 66 hits in 37 games. Sam Bennett with 127. Only Gaudreau, Versteeg and Brodie have less hits.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Fan in Exile

It's hard to read the core's potential. Teams like the Oilers, the Leafs, the Jets and the Sabres seem to have more talent. The Flames have more depth but less star-power. I like how they're built. Maybe Tkachuk turns out to be our Claude Lemieux - a solid enough regular season guy who takes it to another level at playoff time. I could definitely see it. I don't mind the analogy between the Flames/Oilers of the 80s. It's a different era and I could see the Flames coming out on top.

Flames seem to be more well rounded than the Oilers, Leafs, Jets and Sabres who look like they may have more individual talents but also more glaring holes. I liken them to the Ducks who have been a really good team for a long time with basically only two star players in Perry and Getzlaf and a solid supporting cast. In recent years the Flames haven't been getting top notch goaltending which has hurt the development of the team but if that ever gets solidified the Flames at least could be a perennial playoff team and make an occasional Stanley Cup run. I just feel too much of the offensive burden is on Monahan and Gaudreau. I don't expect the Backlund line to be a productive offensively annually like they were this season but they should still be a quality line.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Fan in Exile

It's hard to read the core's potential. Teams like the Oilers, the Leafs, the Jets and the Sabres seem to have more talent. The Flames have more depth but less star-power. I like how they're built. Maybe Tkachuk turns out to be our Claude Lemieux - a solid enough regular season guy who takes it to another level at playoff time. I could definitely see it. I don't mind the analogy between the Flames/Oilers of the 80s. It's a different era and I could see the Flames coming out on top.

Well the Oilers have McDavid, the Sabres have Eichel and the Leafs have Matthews. We don't have a centre of that calibre. That's said I think only the Sabres have centre depth approximating ours long term. Monahan, Backlund, Bennett, Jankowski is amazing centre depth. Sabres have Eichel, O'Reilly, Girgensons, Reinhart if they play them all at centre. With Johnny and Tkachuk I think we have a couple star wingers. I think Tkachuk's upside is a lot higher than Claude Lemieux.

On defense we're looking pretty good.

I'm not as concerned about RW as most. Wing is the least important position and we can always put Tkachuk with Johnny and Monny if we wanna stack a line. Wingers are the easiest to acquire in their prime or at the deadline.

Goaltending is always a question mark but with Gillies, Parsons, Rittich, McDonald and Schneider I think we have outstanding prospects.

The Flames already have the majority of the pieces needed to be a perennial contender and some extra assets on top of that. We're in great shape for the future, just need continued growth and maturation

[Sylvanfan]

Right now, I don't think so. But it's a tough question to answer.

Chicago as an example has won 3 cups, but who would you consider the core group there? Toews, Kane, Hossa, Keith, Seabrook, and Hjalmarsson are the only guys who've continually been with the team for all three of those.

The Flames possibly fall in the position where quantity of core players is there, but quality maybe lacks at the top center role.

All of Chicago, LA, Pittsburgh who have won multiple cups have had a great top end center and two of them in the case of Pittsburgh and LA. That's still the one piece the Flames do not have yet. Still it didn't stop a team from Boston from winning a cup where they had guys right on the cusp of that next tier in Krejci, and Bergeron. In the case of Bergeron a definite top tier defensive guy who's offensive game is close.

[MarkGio]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

Some of you have way too rigid definitions of what it takes to be a contender. There is no perfect teams with every slot having the perfect fit. A perfect team is above and beyond what it takes to legitimately contend. When the Kings won in 2014 they had two guys score more then 20 goals in the regular season. Corey Crawford has two cups with the Hawks but has never been an elite tender IMO.

There is a pattern, however.
#1 Defenseman

• Keith
• Chara
• Doughty
• Letang
• Gonchar
• Lidstrom
• Pronger
• Boyle

1-2 Centre

• Crosby-Malkin
• Kopitar-Carter
• Lecavalier-Richards
• Datsuk-Franzen
• McDonald-Getzlaf
• Toews-Sharp
• Krejci-Bergeron
• Staal-Stillman

Elite Winger

• Brind'Amour
• St.Louis
• Selanne
• Zetterberg
• Sykora
• Kane
• Williams

#1 Goalie

• MAF
• Quick
• Crawford
• Giguere
• Ward
• Osgood
• Thomas
• Khabibulin

Depth Line

• Kessel-Bonino
• Marchand-Ryder
• Penner-Kunitz
• Jordan Staal-Cooke
• Hudler-Filppula
• Ladd-Bolland
• Stoll-Gagne

Although all these characteristics aren't always the case, more often than not the Cup winning roster is loaded with two or more of these features. Plus you have to consider the coach.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Brind'Amour was a centre, one of the best faceoff centremen of his generation. Stillman played more wing IIRC.

IMO Gaudreau/Tkachuk will end up more elite that guys like Stillman, Williams, Sykora. Wouldn't describe any of those guys as being an elite winger. That said IMO there's very few elite wingers in the entire game. Most of the elite forwards play centre.

[Roof-Daddy]

Our core center depth is similar to the Bruins IMO, and that team had 5/6 100+ point seasons, a Presidents trophy, 2 trips to the Cup finals, and 1 Stanley Cup from 08/09 to 13/14.

[bubbsy]

I would put the flames in somewhere in the 'Playoff Bubble' to 'Playoff Contender' range. The main reason for that has been the extremely streaky nature of this team. Long stretches of poor play, a few amazing hot streaks, makes it hard to determine their true state.

Do they have what it takes to becomes an "Elite/Cup Contender" type team? Not currently, and a few things would need to happen, especially when it comes to the progress of the young core:
1) Is Bennet going to be able to be a dependable top 6 point producer ?

2) Is Tkachuk going to progress to a perennial 1st/2nd line winger offensively?

3) Will guys who should be pushing for a spot soon be ready to make a case to round out the roster as cost-effective options (Jankowski, Shinkaruk, klimchuk, poirier)?

4) Not necessarily prospect related, but the flames have a $10M 4th line, can they some how re-purpose that cap use to fill the holes in the roster.

Ideally, the flames are able to leverage the 4th point, and perhaps leverage assets from the 3rd point above to try to address the following.

The major holes:
1) Goaltending - We need a goaltending solution that can be counted on for the next 2-3 years. The team is a competitive one already, and they cannot wait for the prospects to round into starter quality.

2) Skilled RWers. We need one on the top line, and we likely need another to take that versteeg spot (assuming versteeg goes anywhere).

3) Defencemen 4-6. It's the most glaring weakness on the roster as of now (who to pair Engelland with) and again, i don't know if we can just wait on the prospects to earn these spots, as i think we're likely another year or so away before any are able to make real contributions at the NHL level.

[MarkGio]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

Our core center depth is similar to the Bruins IMO, and that team had 5/6 100+ point seasons, a Presidents trophy, 2 trips to the Cup finals, and 1 Stanley Cup from 08/09 to 13/14.

Bruins only had one #1 defenseman with Chara. The Flames have Gio-Hamilton, and a close candidate in Brodie. That makes me believe they're closer to the 07 Ducks:

Hamilton-Pronger
Giordano-Niedermayer
Brodie-Beauchamin

Gaudreau-Selanne
Backlund-McDonald
Monahan-Getzlaf
Tkachuk-Perry
Ferland-Penner
Frolik-Kunitz

Elliot-Giguere

[bubbsy]

Originally Posted by MarkGio

Bruins only had one #1 defenseman with Chara. The Flames have Gio-Hamilton, and a close candidate in Brodie. That makes me believe they're closer to the 07 Ducks:

Hamilton-Pronger
Giordano-Niedermayer
Brodie-Beauchamin

Gaudreau-Selanne
Backlund-McDonald
Monahan-Getzlaf
Tkachuk-Perry
Ferland-Penner
Frolik-Kunitz

Elliot-Giguere

strongly strongly disagree. What the bruins and that ducks team showed was just how dominant those generational elite dmen can be.

Pronger, Neidermayer, Chara were absolute stud dmen in their cup run years. Hell, just look at the fact that pronger went to the cup finals like 3 times with 3 different teams (oilers, ducks, flyers).

Flames have good top 3 d, but nowhere near what made those cup teams ultimately cup winners.

[JiriHrdina]

This year? No.
But it is starting to come together and then need to really start thinking about how supplement the core with the right additional pieces to put them over the edge to be a true contender.
Key components for me are:
- #1 goalie. Is it Moose for the next 2-3 years or someone else?
- Sam needs to take a big step, either as a centre or winger
- Continued development of Tkachuk.
- Need one or two of the young dmen in the system to turn out. The good news is there are plenty of bullets in the chamber - between Kylington, Andrsson, Hickey, Fox, etc - it feels like there is a good chance.
- Re-signing Stone. The teams turnaround and his arrival are not coincidental.

[MarkGio]

Originally Posted by bubbsy

strongly strongly disagree. What the bruins and that ducks team showed was just how dominant those generational elite dmen can be.

Pronger, Neidermayer, Chara were absolute stud dmen in their cup run years. Hell, just look at the fact that pronger went to the cup finals like 3 times with 3 different teams (oilers, ducks, flyers).

Flames have good top 3 d, but nowhere near what made those cup teams ultimately cup winners.

Not taking anything away from those defenseman. And who knows if Hamilton can be a Pronger, but you have to consider eras of hockey and relative peers. Relative to current defenseman, Hamilton is a top 10 producing d-man in the league, him and Gio are one of the best pairs in the league, and going back since 2012, Giordano has been a top 15 point producing defenseman. Between 2013 and 2016, Gio was producing a 0.73 point per game pace, which is phenomenal, but still only 4th best among defenseman during this period (behind Burns, Karlsson, and Letang). And Brodie has had some beastly seasons in there.

Now consider Pronger and Niedermayer was going up against Lidstrom, Gonchar, Zubov, Leetch, Ozolinsh and Blake in the offense category. But not everything is about points, and like Pronger and Niedermayer, Gio is a good defenseman in his own end, much better than Karlsson.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by MarkGio

Not taking anything away from those defenseman. And who knows if Hamilton can be a Pronger, but you have to consider eras of hockey and relative peers. Relative to current defenseman, Hamilton is a top 10 producing d-man in the league, him and Gio are one of the best pairs in the league, and going back since 2012, Giordano has been a top 15 point producing defenseman. Between 2013 and 2016, Gio was producing a 0.73 point per game pace, which is phenomenal, but still only 4th best among defenseman during this period (behind Burns, Karlsson, and Letang). And Brodie has had some beastly seasons in there.

Now consider Pronger and Niedermayer was going up against Lidstrom, Gonchar, Zubov, Leetch, Ozolinsh and Blake in the offense category. But not everything is about points, and like Pronger and Niedermayer, Gio is a good defenseman in his own end, much better than Karlsson.

Pronger is arguably the best defenseman I've watched play in my 20+ years of following the game. I love Gio, Hamilton and Brodie but none of them come close to the overall impact Pronger brought. Pronger was a powerplay QB, could rush the puck, pass the puck, skate it out, play nasty, destroy people, hurt people, shut down forwards, toss down small forwards like they were children. There isn't a defenseman in the game right now that has the overall impact Pronger had in his prime IMO. Pronger was a combination of a dominating shutdown d-man with tremendous size/strength but who also had the puck skills and shot of an offensive d-man. Chara was not too far below Pronger in his prime in terms of overall impact. Both those guys are in a completely different tier than guys like Gonchar, Zubov, Leetch, Ozolinsh and Blake. Pronger dragged several teams to the cup finals playing half the game, dominating in all zones.

Will we see another Pronger? I don't think Dougie is mean enough and physical enough to be a Pronger. I think Ristolainen has a chance to develop into that calibre of dman but we'll see.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by bubbsy

2) Is Tkachuk going to progress to a perennial 1st/2nd line winger offensively?

2) Skilled RWers. We need one on the top line, and we likely need another to take that versteeg spot (assuming versteeg goes anywhere).

Well considering Tkachuk is already playing like a 1st/2nd line winger at age 18 I'd have to say he has a very good chance of maintaining that.

As for RW I think people get a little too hung up on it. I think we should be looking at more how the forwards compliment each other. Overall we already have enough game-breaking skill up front to be a contender, its just that some of the talent is very young and inexperienced.

Gaudreau-Monahan-Powerforward #1

Now I've been arguing for years that Gaudreau and Monahan need a power forward in order to compliment the weaknesses in their game. Most notably Johnny needs someone who can win board battles since that's arguably the worst part of his game, he needs someone who can make space for him, he needs someone who drives the net and drags defenders to him. I had argued last year that Ferland was our best bet for it at the time. I argued prior to the draft that Tkachuk would be a dynamite fit in terms of playstyle for what Gaudreau/Monahan need.

Kessel is a 1st line winger in terms of talent. But coaches don't always put their eggs in one basket and stack one line. Are the Penguins better with Malkin-Crosby-Kessel as their 1st line or having those guys all on different lines? But what is more impressive on paper?

If you wanna sort the Flames by skill it makes the lineup look theoretically better to all those that fixate on the #1 RW hole (as they see it)

Gaudreau-Monahan-Tkachuk
Bennett-Backlund-Frolik

Look at that. 6 top 6 players. No holes. But are we likely to roll like that? No.

Gaudreau-Monahan-Ferland
Tkachuk-Bennett-Brouwer
Frolik-Backlund-Lazar
Bouma-Stajan-Hathaway

Looks pretty solid to me. IMO just missing a 2nd/3rd line winger which is the easiest position to acquire if Brouwer/Lazar can't be that.

The big question long term to me is how the heck do you fit Jankowski in?

IMO how good Jankowski does may mean we move Bennett to the wing if we keep Backlund long term.

Gaudreau-Monahan-Ferland
Bennett-Jankowski-Tkachuk
Frolik-Backlund-Brouwer
Bouma-Lazar-Hathaway

That looks like a perennial cup contender type depth to me.

[Oil Stain]

I feel like at the moment Calgary's core is more of a comparable to St.Louis before their losses of Backes and Shattenkirk than Chicago.

St.Louis has the game breaking winger in Tarasenko. Had quality center depth in Backes, and Stastny. Good supporting forwards in Steen, Lehtera and Brouwer. Up and coming young guys like Fabbri and Schwartz.

Then on Defence they had Pietrangelo, Shattenkirk, and Bouwmeester. Flames don't really have a Parayko yet.

Same goaltender.

[polak]

FDW, I'd say Bennett is a hole in that top 6. He hasn't shown top 6 play yet.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Oil Stain

I feel like at the moment Calgary's core is more of a comparable to St.Louis before their losses of Backes and Shattenkirk than Chicago.

St.Louis has the game breaking winger in Tarasenko. Had quality center depth in Backes, and Stastny. Good supporting forwards in Steen, Lehtera and Brouwer. Up and coming young guys like Fabbri and Schwartz.

Then on Defence they had Pietrangelo, Shattenkirk, and Bouwmeester. Flames don't really have a Parayko yet.

Same goaltender.

Stylistically those comparisons don't really hold IMO. We don't have a Tarasenko. They don't have a Johnny. I think more pure skill from our centres but less experience. I guess Steen and Backlund/Frolik could be comparable. I'd take Tkachuk over Fabbri/Schwartz.

I guess Dougie/Pietro is kind close. I guess Brodie/Shattenkirk is similar but diff styles. I'll take Gio over Bouwmeester every day of the week. Better top 3 for Calgary IMO and I'm not sure Stone is a massive step down from early career Parayko.

Overall I think we've got more skill up front than STL did last year but that is counting on guys like Bennett and Tkachuk and those guys are far from finished products. We have no pure sniper like a Tarasenko though.

I see STL as a team that had tremendous depth, one game changer (Tarasenko) who the coach sheltered and a solid defense. I think the Flames have good offensive depth as well with more emphasis on playmaking (Gaudreau/Tkachuk) but I like the top end of our defense more than STL's.

Interesting comparison. Not sure it fits better than Hawk comparison though. I think the Hawk comparison is used more because some of the comparisons seem better stylistically. Gaudreau and Kane have a lot more similarities than Gaudreau/Tarasenko for example.

In the the Flames are their own team and we don't really need to compare because comparisons can only go so far.

What do the Flames have?

1st line wingers - Gaudreau and probably Tkachuk
2nd line wingers - Frolik

1st line centres - Monahan arguably. Bennett perhaps one day
2nd line centres - Backlund. Maybe Bennett one day. Maybe Jankowski one day

Potentially 4 top two centres. One of the strengths of our team and one of the biggest reasons for optimism for the future. Centre is the most important forward position.

Top pairing dmen - Arguably all of Gio/Brodie/Hamilton can be top pairing dmen on many teams.
2nd pairing dmen - Stone (UFA). Maybe Andersson/Kylington/Hickey one day

#1 goalies - Elliott. Maybe Gillies/Parsons one day

So what are we really missing that is hard to get? A 2nd line winger? Those aren't really that hard to get. A shutdown dman if Stone leaves? That could be hard to get but Treliving has a wealth of assets he can use to get one.

For the most part we're already set for the future. Just need maturation

[Joborule]

To answer my own question, I feel that the Flames contention chances are heavily weighted on how Bennett pans out in the near future. If he can elevate his game to become a consistent point producer (+70 points), he will reach that first line centre tier that gives the Flames two top lines with producing centremen.

It'll give more flexibility in the lineups since Bennett can be paired up with Gaudreau, and Monahan with Tkachuk; assuming he continues to develop into a top 6 player. With these pairings, the players will be able to play off one another that should let them play to the best of their strengths, and offset weaknesses. Complement each line with a right winger or player that has chemistry and you got a top 6 unit that can score goals on a consistent basis.

The current depth of the team (including prospects) I think is ideal. If Flames can keep Backlund, and Jankowski can earn a full-time spot and be effective, that's about the best centre depth you can ask for in today's Salary Cap era. Defense has good depth, and could get better with at least some of the D prospects graduating. The contract anchors hopefully are removed, and the prospects or acquisitions that take their place should be overall positive contributors. If the Flames keep Elliott and he stays true to his second half of season form, then you're good behind the net. If anything, add backup depth to be safe.

So a lot has to go right, but that's the case for every other team. But I would feel confident of the Flames chances if Bennett becomes the player we hope he could be, and soon. It would give the Flames much more range in lineup combos and firepower.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Joborule

To answer my own question, I feel that the Flames contention chances are heavily weighted on how Bennett pans out in the near future. If he can elevate his game to become a consistent point producer (+70 points), he will reach that first line centre tier that gives the Flames two top lines with producing centremen.

Well already we have two top lines with producing centremen (Monahan/Backlund). Bennett and Jankowski developing would really give us an embarrassment of riches at that position.

[Beninho]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Pronger is arguably the best defenseman I've watched play in my 20+ years of following the game. I love Gio, Hamilton and Brodie but none of them come close to the overall impact Pronger brought. Pronger was a powerplay QB, could rush the puck, pass the puck, skate it out, play nasty, destroy people, hurt people, shut down forwards, toss down small forwards like they were children. There isn't a defenseman in the game right now that has the overall impact Pronger had in his prime IMO. Pronger was a combination of a dominating shutdown d-man with tremendous size/strength but who also had the puck skills and shot of an offensive d-man. Chara was not too far below Pronger in his prime in terms of overall impact. Both those guys are in a completely different tier than guys like Gonchar, Zubov, Leetch, Ozolinsh and Blake. Pronger dragged several teams to the cup finals playing half the game, dominating in all zones.

Will we see another Pronger? I don't think Dougie is mean enough and physical enough to be a Pronger. I think Ristolainen has a chance to develop into that calibre of dman but we'll see.

Ya I don't see the Risto comparison, his defensive play is more than suspect. I'd take Hamilton over him every day of the week. My biased opinion