[News] New Arena - Plan B - Victoria Park

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by jayswin

You think Calgarynext has a lot of people laughing. If the Flames announced they were starting a $400mil+ renovation of the Dome by removing the roof we may just get laughed off the face of the earth.

Isn't the city looking at putting in up to $80 million to renovate McMahon? That's just as bad as it's lipstick on a pig especially when other CFL teams are building new ones in the area of $200 million.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by GGG

It's an architectural marvel. The largest hyperbolic parbaloid in the world.

I thought the largest hyperbolic paranoid was Illuminaughty? Oh, you said parbaloid. My bad.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Isn't the city looking at putting in up to $80 million to renovate McMahon? That's just as bad as it's lipstick on a pig especially when other CFL teams are building new ones in the area of $200 million.

Oh absolutely, I'm with you on the McMahon sentiment. Renovating the Dome or McMahon are both ridiculous.

Ottawa and Hamilton should be the goal, new stadiums, if they are even thinking about renovating. I think people are flippantly saying McMahon should only get a renovation and not a replacement because they don't believe the Stamps are worth anything to the city, but they likely don't know the costs involved and that a renovation is a terrible waste of money.

I think people are thinking a quick $50mil will get it done, not realizing that the Stamps already spent tens of millions on renovations a couple seasons ago just to maintain any level of credibility. To do what people want "create a roof, completely gut and renovate", we're probably looking at $150-$250mil all in. Then you could have just had a nice new stadium for $250mil.

$80mil in renos won't get you much at all.

[polak]

Sell the Stamps, combine that with McMahon reno money and build the Flames an arena.

Thanks. See ya.

[ken0042]

I'd be willing to get behind the Stamps getting some extra money from some level of gov't for a new stadium; as opposed to the Flames. Just some numbers I've crunched, based upon some of my best estimates. I went with estimates as opposed to numbers found online, as I think most of those are based on face value, and not what STHs actually pay.

Let's say the Flames currently average $100 per ticket. 19,000 tickets for 41 games per year is $77.9 M per year in ticket sales. A new arena at 18,000 seats, let's put the new average up to $150 per ticket. That not only factors in increases at all price levels, but also takes into consideration them increasing the number of premium seats (Club and box seats), and reducing the number of PL, Black and even Green seats. 41 games, 18,000 seats at $150 each brings in $110.7 M per year; or an increase of $32.8 M per year. Given a 30 year lifespan of a building, that is an increase of $984 M. Take in a building cost of $500 M, they still bring in an extra $484 million. That is without factoring in anything else like Hitmen, Roughnecks, extra concerts, more concessions, etc. Concessions are a big one, as with fewer lineups they can serve more people between periods.

In comparison if you have the Stamps bringing in $40 per ticket at 30,000 per game and 10 games per year. (Usually a playoff game.) That's $12 M per year. Do another 50% increase and $6 M per year, it would take 41 years to break even on a $250M stadium.

So getting back to a Flames arena, this is where I have a sticking point with them getting a publicly funded new building. A new building will bring them a crap-tonne of extra money, at my own personal expense of either much higher ticket prices, worse seats, or fewer games. So here's the deal:

- The Flames make a lot more money.
- I have to spend more to watch less hockey.
- My tax bill will increase.

They need to pick one. They cannot have all 3.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by jayswin

Oh absolutely, I'm with you on the McMahon sentiment. Renovating the Dome or McMahon are both ridiculous.

Ottawa and Hamilton should be the goal, new stadiums, if they are even thinking about renovating. I think people are flippantly saying McMahon should only get a renovation and not a replacement because they don't believe the Stamps are worth anything to the city, but they likely don't know the costs involved and that a renovation is a terrible waste of money.

I think people are thinking a quick $50mil will get it done, not realizing that the Stamps already spent tens of millions on renovations a couple seasons ago just to maintain any level of credibility. To do what people want "create a roof, completely gut and renovate", we're probably looking at $150-$250mil all in. Then you could have just had a nice new stadium for $250mil.

$80mil in renos won't get you much at all.

The bowl of McMahon is fantastic. Nothing needs to be done to the seating area. The issue with McMahon is the bathrooms and concourse. So could you just build a new concession facility outside of where it ends and turn the current concessions into bathrooms.

It's a lipstick on a pig option by a new stadium won't improve the viewing experience for anyone.

[Jordan!]

Originally Posted by polak

Sell the Stamps, combine that with McMahon reno money and build the Flames an arena.

Thanks. See ya.

How much would the Stamps be worth?? 20 mill?

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by GGG

The bowl of McMahon is fantastic. Nothing needs to be done to the seating area. The issue with McMahon is the bathrooms and concourse. So could you just build a new concession facility outside of where it ends and turn the current concessions into bathrooms.

It's a lipstick on a pig option by a new stadium won't improve the viewing experience for anyone.

I believe the Stamps already did studies four or five years ago in regards to renovations to McMahon and it was cost prohibitive because it's all concrete and costly to do anything to the concourse without altering the stability of the structure. I agree the sightlines are pretty good but that's pretty well where the good ends as the suites in particular are laughable and that's an area where the team is losing money compared to the rest of the league. In a cold weather city like Calgary ideally you would like a fair amount of suites for your outdoor stadium.

[Yoho]

Originally Posted by Bouw N Arrow

How much would the Stamps be worth?? 20 mill?

No you're thinking the Coyotes.

[polak]

Originally Posted by Yoho

No you're thinking the Coyotes.

I'm pretty sure the entire CFL is worth less than an average NHL team. Not being a dick either. The Coyotes are reportedly worth 200 million, can't find much for reliable info on CFL team valuation but this site has them around 10 million:

https://cfldb.ca/faq/league/

[Bunk]

I wonder whether the City would have any involvement at all on McMahon. It is University owned (and therefore more related to the Province, than the City).

[Joborule]

Originally Posted by jayswin

Oh absolutely, I'm with you on the McMahon sentiment. Renovating the Dome or McMahon are both ridiculous.

Ottawa and Hamilton should be the goal, new stadiums, if they are even thinking about renovating. I think people are flippantly saying McMahon should only get a renovation and not a replacement because they don't believe the Stamps are worth anything to the city, but they likely don't know the costs involved and that a renovation is a terrible waste of money.

I think people are thinking a quick $50mil will get it done, not realizing that the Stamps already spent tens of millions on renovations a couple seasons ago just to maintain any level of credibility. To do what people want "create a roof, completely gut and renovate", we're probably looking at $150-$250mil all in. Then you could have just had a nice new stadium for $250mil.

$80mil in renos won't get you much at all.

According to McMahon Stadium society, they ran a redevelopment report back in 2012, and according to it $70-$90M would be enough to modernize the stadium. From the report, they've got these findings:

Originally Posted by PLAYBOOK: McMahon Stadium Redevelopment Concepts Final Report (2012)

The stadium is in good general structural condition due to an annual maintenance program in the range of $200K per year (funds are provided from ongoing operations).

An investment of approximately $2.08M (current value based on capital escalation from 2015 construction estimates, ref. Morrison Hershfield Report) over the next four to five years would ensure the stadium structure and mechanical systems could provide service for another 25 to 30 years. A funding source has not been identified for this work.

An investment of approximately $36.7M (current value based on capital escalation from 2007 construction estimates, ref. CANNONDESIGN Report) for improvements to the existing concourse would improve user experience and address the majority of current user convenience issues. A funding source has not been identified for this work.

The McMahon Stadium Society has explored full modernization of the stadium, including:

• new main entrance and lobby
• two levels of corporate boxes
• a hall of fame
• a new Stamps store
• booth/box/suite spectator amenities throughout the existing seating
• adding a south concourse level to replace the existing fieldhouse
• adding washrooms and meeting rooms
• providing pedestrian connectivity throughout entire stadium

Execution of all proposed amenities would represent an investment in the range of $69.4-89.2M (current value based on capital escalation from 2012 construction estimates,

Now, further review would be necessary to validate the costs, but the report confirms that McMahon stadium still has life in it with proper TLC. Considering how frequently it gets used, and whom uses it, it does it's job.

The foundations of McMahon is fine, it just needs a lot of work done to it in features. Everything in the list above would help elevate it's status. I feel the only thing missing is replacing all of the seats to the same chair style. No benches or buckets.

I think when it comes to building a new stadium or just simply renovating McMahon, it'll come down to just how much more it would cost to build a new venue, and what is gained out of it. One thing that definitely would be beneficial to both the city and University of Calgary is the land that McMahon currently occupies. Even if they put the new stadium in the same area, but more south towards 16th, it'll make the area more developer friendly. Instead of having to build around the stadium, you have a whole squared out boundary to work with that can allow for the community to have unity due to proper building, street, and pathways layout.

However, the fieldhouse still needs to be built. The costs of building a new stadium on top of that, and also possibly chiping into the new Victoria Park/Stampede arena, and the city/other levels of government are investing too much money to accommodate CSEC. So a new stadium may be a bit much, and it's better off to renovate McMahon.

Unless the new stadium is also the new fieldhouse. Then you can kill three birds with one stone. New fieldhouse, new stadium, and all of the McMahon lands freed up for prime TOD development. I feel this is the option that will get serious consideration out of all. If it only costs an additional ~$100M to build the fieldhouse to stadium specs, then it'll be worth it rather than putting the money into McMahon, since it'll last longer and you don't have to deal with the constraints that redeveloping McMahon currently has. I feel this is what CSEC was hinting at with the CalgaryNEXT proposal. 'Even if we don't go with the original plan of combing the fieldhouse/stadium with the arena, keep in mind that fieldhouse and stadium can still be one of the same.'

But, the primary objective of the fieldhouse is to provide an indoor 400M track that meets IAAF standards, and is readily available for recreational, amateur, varsity, and national team athletes to use. Not only would the stamps have to occupy the building as little as possible, but the reclining seats cannot damage/wear down the track. The functionality of the fieldhouse and track cannot be compromised if the Stampeders are going to be tenants for their games and possibly practices (which take up a lot of time throughout the season).

So there will have to be a report after the arena ordeal gets figured out to confirm which option works that can accommodate everyone. If I was to call the shots here, I would go with combining the stadium with the fieldhouse, on the condition that CSEC builds a separate training facility to run their practices so then the track and field is only inaccessible for around gamedays. There would be cost-savings, and gains from TOD development of the McMahon Stadium lands.

[RM14]

The report doesn't even address the metal benches and the fact that there are 15,000 seats of benches that are too skinny to put actual seats on. The entire endzone and upper level concrete structure is designed wrong for modern seating. If they can't put any actual seats in place of those benches, then there is no point in putting $100 mil into boxes and concourse.

[Addick]

Originally Posted by jayswin

Oh absolutely, I'm with you on the McMahon sentiment. Renovating the Dome or McMahon are both ridiculous.

Ottawa and Hamilton should be the goal, new stadiums, if they are even thinking about renovating.

While I haven't actually been to Hamilton's new stadium, it doesn't really seem precedent setting. It doesn't even look permanent. In regards to Ottawa, isn't it half refurbished, half new-build?

[GGG]

Originally Posted by RM14

The report doesn't even address the metal benches and the fact that there are 15,000 seats of benches that are too skinny to put actual seats on. The entire endzone and upper level concrete structure is designed wrong for modern seating. If they can't put any actual seats in place of those benches, then there is no point in putting $100 mil into boxes and concourse.

Or you leave the metal benches the way they are and tarp them off for everything but Rider games and Labour Day. Bring down the capacity to about 30k backed seats. In the new stadiums there are less seats between the goal lines compared to what McMahon has now.

And what used to be the superwhite benches on the 50 yard lines were the best value in the CFL for seats. I was paying $200 including playoffs for 50 yard line seats. In no way would I support spending public funds to replace the best value seats with corporate boxes.

[Scary Eloranta]

Originally Posted by GGG

The bowl of McMahon is fantastic. Nothing needs to be done to the seating area. The issue with McMahon is the bathrooms and concourse. So could you just build a new concession facility outside of where it ends and turn the current concessions into bathrooms.

It's a lipstick on a pig option by a new stadium won't improve the viewing experience for anyone.

"Fantastic" might be a bit of a strong word. I'm a STH and my bench seats are garbage. Plus the seating is very cramped with limited leg room. Pretty sure new stadiums are designed with more aisles too, so you're not getting up as much for people. Might sound like minor issues but all together it adds up to a not very good fan experience which is what's needed more these days in order to draw new/younger fans.

Also - not sure where they could put in luxury boxes - especially the mid-level ones like they have at New Mosaic. Those are pretty much cash machines for the Riders.

[Scary Eloranta]

I know most people hate the CalgaryNext proposal but is this render really that bad? I could live with that.

(Edit: I know this is Grey Cup mode but I've seen some without end zone seats that seemed acceptable. Much nicer than McMahon at least, and a roof!)

[You Need a Thneed]

My plan for McMahon:

Demolish the upper sections, rebuild with a cantilever over the lower seats, with better boxes, and a partial roof.

Widen and enclose the concourses (could then be heated), new bathrooms and concessions. Nothing has to be two fancy, just has to be more functional than it is now.

Do one side at a time, so that it effects the season operation only a minimum amount.

[RM14]

Originally Posted by GGG

Or you leave the metal benches the way they are and tarp them off for everything but Rider games and Labour Day. Bring down the capacity to about 30k backed seats. In the new stadiums there are less seats between the goal lines compared to what McMahon has now.

And what used to be the superwhite benches on the 50 yard lines were the best value in the CFL for seats. I was paying $200 including playoffs for 50 yard line seats. In no way would I support spending public funds to replace the best value seats with corporate boxes.

I think there are only 20,000 backed seats, and there can not be any more than that ever without replacing the actual concrete in half the stadium.

The only rows big enough are the originals from the early 60s. (seen below)

Spoiler!

Spoiler!

Spoiler!

Spoiler!

[GGG]

I was thinking there was 9 bench sections not 7. One thing to consider with the new stadium is there are a lot less seats between the goal lines as they aren't build up as high.

I would suspect that a new stadium will not increase the number of good seats (anything with a seat back in McMahon.) And you trade sightlines for a seat back which is something I wouldn't do.

What do superwhites go for these days?