[News] New Arena - Plan B - Victoria Park

[burn_this_city]

Vic park should have been the first proposal. CalgaryNEXT is a terrible location with all sorts of hair on it.

[Jordan!]

The Flames need to stay in Calgary.. They are the catalyst culturally for the city coming together without much else in that realm.

All talk from King in my opinion.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Bouw N Arrow

The Flames need to stay in Calgary.. They are the catalyst culturally for the city coming together without much else in that realm.

All talk from King in my opinion.

Yes, passive aggressive, backhanded compliment from Jordon!! That's the nicest thing he's ever said to his former team and city!

[Johnny Rotten]

I'm not a Calgarian so I don't know the Victoria Park area really well. But IF the Flames get a new arena in the Victoria Park area, would there be any possibility (in a few years) to tear down the Saddledome (and Corral) to build the Stamps a new stadium.

I don't know if there is enough space, but I thought I'd throw it out there if it hasn't already been mentioned.

[temple5]

Assuming a net 0 tax increase for whatever money the city puts in, what city services would people cut to facilitate this welfare payment so the Flames can charge more money for the same end product just in a nicer seat.

Would you rather see a portion of Crowchild fixed or money given to subsidize the flames?

Would you rather the green line was underground or upgraded in some other way for a larger time or money given to subsidize the flames?

Would you rather see a 17th Ave SE CTrain spur line from Inglewood (or another CT project) initial phase planning or money given to subsidize the flames?

Would you rather have weekly trash pickup or money given to subsidize the flames?

Not to say the city has no waste that could be cut, of course it does, but I wouldnt give up any of the above or alot more to give the owners money to build a new arena so they can justify a 30% bump in seat prices. The majority of NHL revenue comes from seat sales and the Flames have come close to saturating the amount they can charge other than 5-10% yearly increases. A new arena gives them the ability to instantly increase seats by 30% for no reason other than the building is new. The beer is the same, the product you are watching is the same, the food is still over priced, but look look, there will be more over priced restaurants you can use and wider concourses !!!! Now people are more than welcome to pay for anything they want, but dont ask others to subsidize your entertainment.

The new arena in Edmonton is extremely nice, there is no question about that. But the tax payers in the CoE will be paying for that in either increased property taxes or reduced services for a long, long time. Whats worse is people who wont even attend a single event at the arena will also have to "pay" for it. If the market was better I could easily see this as being a mayoral issue in the election. As it stands, I dont think anyone has the stomach to try to debate corporate welfare in this market. This might be an issue that lingers until the next civic election as thats the best time to extort politicians.

Arena costs should be based on user fees, the only scenario I am ok with the CoC putting money in is if its offset by a building user fee that reimburses the city in an adequate time, maybe something like $30/ticket or 15% of the ticket cost for a facility fee on top of the cost of the ticket itself and ticketmaster fees. The Flames obviously dont want that because it would reduce the amount they can charge in tickets as it would increase the overall amount. Instead they want free money from the City.

Flames, if you cant come up with a better idea that doesnt involve the city putting in no more than 50M total, then fine, move to Houston or Oklahoma City.

[calgaryblood]

Originally Posted by jayswin

Yes, passive aggressive, backhanded compliment from Jordon!! That's the nicest thing he's ever said to his former team and city!

Yeah, we should all move to the cultural Mecca that is Arizona.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Simanium

As someone that lived in Winnipeg for the Jets 1.0, was there when they left Winnipeg and when they returned to Winnipeg, I can tell you that there is much more than the economic standpoint of things.

I didn't say otherwise. I was countering the assertion being put forward here about the economic activity generated by professional sports teams - assertions that have been shot down by a host of studies on the matter.

[Ace]

The Stadium really pays for public dollars from income tax alone.

You have to recognise that without a building to play in there is no team, and the team ends up in X-City. Now the semantics are such a good base here, its a bluff, they'll never leave, bla bla bla. Maybe that is true, but once you recognise that there is actually an alternative of not having the team then the numbers make sense.

Typical NHL Payroll 70 million, for simplicity sake generates about 30 million a year in Income Tax Revenue alone which would not be replaced by another industry. If a building lasts 15 years that's $450,000,000 generated in income tax revenue alone, by having the team in Calgary (and Canada).

The Federal government should have a vested interest in getting NHL teams into Canada, it just makes sense. Provincially it's a bit under $4.5 million a year, or 67.5 million over the life of the building in income taxes alone. Becomes less advantageous if the Provincial Government gives more funding than this.

The problem here is the Municipality gets none of that revenue, yet they are the ones on the front lines of battling this.

Really the federal Government should be trying to add like 4 NHL teams to Canada

[getbak]

Originally Posted by Johnny Rotten

I'm not a Calgarian so I don't know the Victoria Park area really well. But IF the Flames get a new arena in the Victoria Park area, would there be any possibility (in a few years) to tear down the Saddledome (and Corral) to build the Stamps a new stadium.

I don't know if there is enough space, but I thought I'd throw it out there if it hasn't already been mentioned.

No. There are many places that a new stadium could be built. Where the Saddledome currently sits is not one of them. Also, if we host the 2026 Olympics, we'll need all three of the Saddledome, the new arena, and the new/renovated stadium.

More than likely, if the Flames stay on/near the Stampede, the Stamps will stay near the University.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by calgaryblood

Yeah, we should all move to the cultural Mecca that is Arizona.

We can only hope to one day achieve the heights of taking another culture and whitewashing the hell out of it. For now, we'll just have to stare from afar and be envious.

[Split98]

I don't live in Calgary, and I still hate this idea.

The drumming we get in ticket sales, beer, food, merch, etc are all ludicrous as it is. That KK and the Flames don't have the capital to build themselves a new barn is silly.

KK can keep the threats to himself.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by Bouw N Arrow

The Flames need to stay in Calgary.. They are the catalyst culturally for the city coming together without much else in that realm.

Originally Posted by jayswin

Yes, passive aggressive, backhanded compliment from !! That's the nicest thing he's ever said to his former team and city!

Remember Bouw's triumph return to Calgary thread? Taco Time, Edo Japan, A&W... it was clear that despite (iirc) being born and raised here he didn't exactly soak in much of Calgary beyond his own school and neighbourhood bubble. What defines Calgary to him is rather limited to food courts and malls.

[JackJack]

Ridiculous. Wait until we do get a new stadium subsidized in part by taxpayer funds.
Then you can have the privilege to go pay $15/beer and $8/slice of pizza.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Realtor 1

This has to be the post where you finally realized you were wrong in your comment that there is NO economic benefit to Calgary having a new arena and NHL franchise. Using vandalism of bus stops and maintenance of side walks as the argument of what will offset any gain? really?

On the bright side at least you went from NO benefit to now admitting there is some but quickly finding something to offset it.

When people say no economic benefit they mean that due to the substitution affect of entertainment dollars the subsidy spent on arenas will generate less economic benefit than other uses of the money. Essentially an arena is a poor use of public funds if the the goal is to stimulate the economy and should not be considered a reason to build an arena.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Ace

The Stadium really pays for public dollars from income tax alone.

You have to recognise that without a building to play in there is no team, and the team ends up in X-City. Now the semantics are such a good base here, its a bluff, they'll never leave, bla bla bla. Maybe that is true, but once you recognise that there is actually an alternative of not having the team then the numbers make sense.

Typical NHL Payroll 70 million, for simplicity sake generates about 30 million a year in Income Tax Revenue alone which would not be replaced by another industry. If a building lasts 15 years that's $450,000,000 generated in income tax revenue alone, by having the team in Calgary (and Canada).

The Federal government should have a vested interest in getting NHL teams into Canada, it just makes sense. Provincially it's a bit under $4.5 million a year, or 67.5 million over the life of the building in income taxes alone. Becomes less advantageous if the Provincial Government gives more funding than this.

The problem here is the Municipality gets none of that revenue, yet they are the ones on the front lines of battling this.

Really the federal Government should be trying to add like 4 NHL teams to Canada

How much should the city of Calgary pay to lure Head Offices to Calgary. Should the measure be if the employees pay enough income tax to offset the costs of the building?

Should the government subsidize my job to roughly what my taxes are to keep me employed?

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Johnny Rotten

I'm not a Calgarian so I don't know the Victoria Park area really well. But IF the Flames get a new arena in the Victoria Park area, would there be any possibility (in a few years) to tear down the Saddledome (and Corral) to build the Stamps a new stadium.

I don't know if there is enough space, but I thought I'd throw it out there if it hasn't already been mentioned.

I know I'd go to a lot more Stamps games if that's where it was, but a football stadium would take up an awful lot of real estate in the Stampede grounds. And the whole area is pretty much shut down for a month to set up, hold, and then tear down the Stampede, right in the middle of the season.

[Moneyhands23]

Originally Posted by JackJack

Ridiculous. Wait until we do get a new stadium subsidized in part by taxpayer funds.
Then you can have the privilege to go pay $15/beer and $8/slice of pizza.

Or enjoy pre drinking...buy a cpl beers and enjoy a premium building... also pizza and beer should never be used as a negative.

[Flames in 07]

Originally Posted by GGG

How much should the city of Calgary pay to lure Head Offices to Calgary. Should the measure be if the employees pay enough income tax to offset the costs of the building?

Should the government subsidize my job to roughly what my taxes are to keep me employed?

I don't know. Do you bring tens of millions in direct tax revenue? Create hundreds of jobs and add to cultural fabric of a city? If so, then maybe they should. Especially if other municipalities are willing to provide incentives.

Calgary probably doesn't move but the sense of entitlement people have about nhl in Calgary is odd.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Flames in 07

I don't know. Do you bring tens of millions in direct tax revenue? Create hundreds of jobs and add to cultural fabric of a city? If so, then maybe they should. Especially if other municipalities are willing to provide incentives.

Calgary probably doesn't move but the sense of entitlement people have about nhl in Calgary is odd.

The Oil companies bring in billions of dollars. Should we be building their office towers for them. Their employees pay millions in taxes that easily offset the cost of a new building. We would be better off economically subsidizing a CRNL office tower than Edwards other business.

There is no economic argument to subsidize the flames.

Now cultural fabric is an interesting discussion. And the arguement that providing a "world class" city is a debate we could have. But trying to say the flames economic benefit are worth subsidizing does not hold up to scrutiny. See any of he linked studies in any of these threads.

[Flames in 07]

Originally Posted by GGG

The Oil companies bring in billions of dollars. Should we be building their office towers for them. Their employees pay millions in taxes that easily offset the cost of a new building. We would be better off economically subsidizing a CRNL office tower than Edwards other business.

There is no economic argument to subsidize the flames.

Now cultural fabric is an interesting discussion. And the arguement that providing a "world class" city is a debate we could have. But trying to say the flames economic benefit are worth subsidizing does not hold up to scrutiny. See any of he linked studies in any of these threads.

You keep making strange comparisons. You can't compare yourself to an NHL franchise. It's not as strange but you Can't compare large oil companies very well either.

If Seattle or Houston offer an incentive to bring the flames down, then Calgary, Alberta and Canada lose the benefits I noted above. Period. I don't need to read silly studies that muddy waters. NHL in Calgary equals tax revenue and overall economic activity that it won't have when the Canucks have a new rivalry with Seattle if they build them a rink.