True North paid $93 million for and own the MTS, which was built initially at a cost of 133.5 million of entirely public funding from the three levels of government.
Which is exponentially more appropriate than what CalgaryNext was trying to pull - or what QC or Edmonton's arenas were able to con out of the public. I never called for a 100% private proposal.
Think of how busy the nightlife scene is after a flames game on a Friday or Saturday compared to a non flames game. Think of the business that thrive on 20k people moving on and looking for something else to do for the night. Think of the other 50k who get together with friends to go watch a game because they are big time fans.
The thing is that those people usually aren't spending new-found money. They are just spending money that is not being spent somewhere else. I probably spend about $500-600 on the Flames a year....if that option wasn't there I'd just spend it on some restaurants or events or my kids. But it would still be spent mostly in Calgary, and probably more evenly distributed to other businesses.
Support public funding for the civic pride factor, or wanting a better entertainment district factor...but let's not be naive and support it because we think there's a massive financial windfall to come. The economic benefit of these stadium never adds up, so let's at least be honest about it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Realtor 1
Is this not fair...
If the city offered to
- clean up the site on the west village
- provide the land at a significantly reduced cost
- provide the required roadways and infrastructure around the complex
You do realize this probably at least half a billion dollars worth of items right? To properly clean up and develop West Village, realign Bow Trail and 14th (and possibly Crowchild while we're at it), the riverfront etc is one hell of a project. It would probably take a solid decade to do it right. And CalgaryNEXT would take up so much space, the tax benefit wouldn't be enough space for the items that help to recoup the money.
Which is exponentially more appropriate than what CalgaryNext was trying to pull - or what QC or Edmonton's arenas were able to con out of the public. I never called for a 100% private proposal.
Absolutely. I don't think anyone is legitimately suggesting otherwise, including the Flames.
The over reaction by the usual suspects in this thread is usual
King says Flames are not "threatening" to move team: without a new facility
Quote:
The ongoing discussions and rhetoric over a new facility took an interesting turn earlier in the week when Calgary Flames president and CEO Ken King was interviewed by Toronto’s Sportsnet 590 The Fan radio and said the team could face the possibility of moving to another city if the team and the City of Calgary can’t strike a deal.
King clarified his comments in an interview with Postmedia on Saturday afternoon, less than 24 hours after Sam Bennett scored an empty-netter to seal a 5-2 victory over the Sharks at one of the oldest facilities in the NHL.
He said they were in response to a question of him using a “threat tactic” as a way of posturing their position to Calgarians.
“That’s not the way our guys operate,” King said. “We’re not threatening people. And furthermore, I think and hope we’re going to get a deal. The truth of the matter is, we would just move. Which is not to be confused as a threat. We don’t think it’s fair to threaten. We think it’s fair for people to decide whether or not if they want a facility … and whether or not they think it’s appropriate. If they do, great. We’ll participate. If they decide not to, well then we’ve, obviously, got to make some decisions about the future.
“It won’t include threats. But it certainly may, at some point, include a clear decision. My entire job and my role in life right now is to ensure that day never comes.”
On Saturday, he said he does not feel like the Calgary Flames are in a desperate situation.
“We’re still working on it,” King said. “I’m dismayed from time to time about progress and lack of progress. But the objective is clear and the effort is ongoing. I wouldn’t characterize it as desperate at all.
“My comment (on Sportsnet 590 The Fan) was in response to a tactical question … the only tactics we intend to use are logic and an appreciation and respect for the political process and the public’s point of view. And whether or not the public and political folks believe this is an important part of our city or not.”
King said the public feedback has been positive.
“Our current situation is not viable in the near or long-term,” King said. “That’s why we’re having this discussion is about a new facility. So, if we’re successful in that initiative, our near and long-term future is here (in Calgary). If not, we have to decide what the alternatives are … Anyone can connect the dots to how many choices we have left.
Stick around for another few years ( 3 maybe 4?), let us get the prime years out of Johnny, Mony, Dougie, Tkachuk etc then please pack your bags get the F out of there.
I think Carolina's got a nice young core, forget Quebec, they can move here. We would have Lindholm over Monahan after all.
It is a legit threat even though Seattle really just wants an NBA team back, they really have no appetite for an NHL team. The NHL wants in though.
It really would be dumb of the Flames to leave a town where they are King to being the 5th or 6th option in Seattle. The Seahawks are king there and despite having a decent time in recent years, the Mariners can't even draw good crowds. The Sounders have a loyal following. Then there are all the college teams. I really don't see an NHL team drawing much fan interest there, but to the NHL, they don't really care about ticket sales, they care about the tv package they can sell.
Too bad Katz didn't move the Oilers there, it would have been perfect and if they got McDavid too while in Seattle, that might actually have worked.
Also, Seattle's arena deal is almost as big a sideshow as Calgary's; however, they don't actually have any team yet.
My own Seattle perspective:
First, I don't think the Flames are going anywhere, and Seattle obtaining an NHL team is still more theory than reality. Nor do I want the Flames to leave. BUT.....
Hockey would be fine in Seattle. It would not be bigger than NFL/MLB or even NBA (if/when that returns), but the NHL is also #4 in lots of other markets. Seattle's metro area is three times the size of Calgary's; the Seahawks only have eight home games a year to compete with. The balancing act of NBA/NHL since the seasons run concurrently would be challenging, but the city can bear it.
As was mentioned, there are two WHL franchises that draw pretty decently (and I think those franchises would be significantly impacted with an NHL team), so the hockey base is here.
What I see as one of the biggest obstacles to Seattle getting either an NBA or NHL team is that they are trying to fund this arena completely through private funds; I don't believe for a second that there is a single owner in either league that is happy with that kind of precedent being set. This is largely what screwed over the Seattle group's proposed acquisition of the Sacramento Kings; NBA owners do not like losing the ability to hold their cities hostage, and you can bet NHL owners feel the same way.
I realize that this is largely tangential - the Flames aren't leaving Calgary - but if/when Seattle somehow gets themselves an NHL team, I am confident it can thrive here.
So what? There's disposable income allocated to local entertainment which is pretty much fixed regardless of the medium receiving it. Unless all of a sudden Calgarians are either a) going into extra debt because of the Flames, or b) generating extra disposable income because of the Flames, there is no net benefit of the Flames to the local economy.
The people who are going to clubs after Flames games are just a balance sheet. If Calgarians are spending 10% of their money on local entertainment, chances are they will continue to do so. That just means restaurants, golf courses, movie theaters, and non-Flames games drinking events will grow when hockey-tied industries shrink. Both cannot grow at the same time unless there's all of a sudden richer people with less costs. You're just moving the dollars from one entertainment economy to another, not growing both.
With an increase of taxes, that means disposable income shrinks. That shrinks the economy. Burdening citizens with an outrageous purchases does exactly that. It doesn't matter if its 25 thousand different citizens or not. There's just the X amount of dollars going towards local entertainment from Calgarians. Those are the laws of economics.
What did you think, people magically had more money just because "Flames"?
I disagree with this. I probably spend about $15-20K on season tickets, and associated beer, food, cabs and other associated incidentals for games.
That money would simply not be spent here without the Flames. I would use it for bigger trips to events elsewhere.
The thing is that those people usually aren't spending new-found money. They are just spending money that is not being spent somewhere else. I probably spend about $500-600 on the Flames a year....if that option wasn't there I'd just spend it on some restaurants or events or my kids. But it would still be spent mostly in Calgary, and probably more evenly distributed to other businesses.
Support public funding for the civic pride factor, or wanting a better entertainment district factor...but let's not be naive and support it because we think there's a massive financial windfall to come. The economic benefit of these stadium never adds up, so let's at least be honest about it.
You do realize this probably at least half a billion dollars worth of items right? To properly clean up and develop West Village, realign Bow Trail and 14th (and possibly Crowchild while we're at it), the riverfront etc is one hell of a project. It would probably take a solid decade to do it right. And CalgaryNEXT would take up so much space, the tax benefit wouldn't be enough space for the items that help to recoup the money.
If I was in your position that $500 a year you spend on the flames would be taken north and spent in Edmonton to watch whoever my new team was live or perhaps I would save for 2 years and take that entertainment money on a trip elsewhere. Just because you spend 500 on a local hockey team today doesn't mean that you will spend 500 on a local museum or pub should there be no team. I would argue that the 500 is taken on a 3 hour road trip to continue enjoying the style of entertainment you previously did.
And I am well aware of the costs but this is only a city problem. It's either leave some of the most prime real estate in the city vacant forever or do something about it. As for Bow and Crowchild... something already needs to be done about that area (Crowchild) so another city issue that needs to be addressed regardless of CalgaryNEXT.
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In fairness, the amount of public cash that the Coyotes have sucked out of there probably has a fair amount to do with that.
Kind of the thing we're trying to avoid in this particular situation.
And again, I dont think anyone, including Nenshi, has a problem with public money going into an arena, its just a question of 'how much' and 'for what public benefit.'
Plus its only like 10 minutes from Downtown!
10 minutes from downtown? Ur kidding me? Maybe at 3am and if you're driving 150km/hr
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Not a chance Gary Bettman and the rest of the rest of the league's owners lets this happen. Remember how hard they fought to keep the Coyotes in Arizona. To move a team in a hockey mad market and risk alienating fans would be one of the dumbest decisions in professional sports history.
I call their bluff just like with Daryl Katz. All this will lead to is another full page ad but from Murray Edwards this time. I'm surprised the Flames brass didn't learn from the mistakes by the people up north.
It seems rather insulting that Ken King equates not receiving a sizable enough subsidy from the government to "no one wanting us here". He really should look for some different words.
The Flames make approx 18 mil every year operating profit, it would cost approx 350 mil to make an high end hockey arena as proposed in CalgaryNext. [...] It would take the Flames almost 20 years to fund their own arena [...]
So, if the Flames were to build their own arena, it would be paid for with the increase in revenues. Otherwise, it's not worth doing.
However, an organization with an $18M/y operating profit does not need a new arena. That's 10th best in the league, even in an old building.
Call the bluff. Our owners are too smart to not try to get free money, but they're also smart enough to not throw it away.
Location: Wondering when # became hashtag and not a number sign.
Exp:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper
Not a chance Gary Bettman and the rest of the rest of the league's owners lets this happen. Remember how hard they fought to keep the Coyotes in Arizona. To move a team in a hockey mad market and risk alienating fans would be one of the dumbest decisions in professional sports history. I call their bluff just like with Daryl Katz. All this will lead to is another full page ad but from Murray Edwards.
If Edmonton calling Katz bluff and Katz still getting 350 million from the city is whats on the table...Flames will be all over it.
Truth is that Katz didnt even shell out 20 million of his own dough when everything settled.
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The thing is that those people usually aren't spending new-found money. They are just spending money that is not being spent somewhere else. I probably spend about $500-600 on the Flames a year....if that option wasn't there I'd just spend it on some restaurants or events or my kids. But it would still be spent mostly in Calgary, and probably more evenly distributed to other businesses.
Not everyone that attends a flames game is from Calgary. I try to make it to a couple games from Kelowna and we typically make a night of it before and after the game. Without the flames, my trips to Calgary would drop to close to zero and spending on those trips would certainly be less.
There are quite a few people like me that do stuff like that coming from Lethbridge, Medicine Hat, Red Deer, etc... so there definitely is new money coming into the city of Calgary due to the Flames.
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