[News] New Arena - Plan B - Victoria Park

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

Out of pure curiosity, who funded Commonwealth stadium, and then the subsequent renovation? Surely it wasn't the owners of the Esks.

It was built for the Commonwealth games like the Saddledome for the Olympics.

[MarkGio]

Originally Posted by Realtor 1

It isn't just 25k people who benefit.

Think of how busy the nightlife scene is after a flames game on a Friday or Saturday compared to a non flames game. Think of the business that thrive on 20k people moving on and looking for something else to do for the night. Think of the other 50k who get together with friends to go watch a game because they are big time fans. Sure some people may get together to watch the "seattle flames" at a pub but the aspect of it being the local team brings people out more than not having a local team.
And not all 20k are season ticket holders.... hundreds of thousands of unique faces go through the doors, not the same 20k each night.

So what? There's disposable income allocated to local entertainment which is pretty much fixed regardless of the medium receiving it. Unless all of a sudden Calgarians are either a) going into extra debt because of the Flames, or b) generating extra disposable income because of the Flames, there is no net benefit of the Flames to the local economy.

The people who are going to clubs after Flames games are just a balance sheet. If Calgarians are spending 10% of their money on local entertainment, chances are they will continue to do so. That just means restaurants, golf courses, movie theaters, and non-Flames games drinking events will grow when hockey-tied industries shrink. Both cannot grow at the same time unless there's all of a sudden richer people with less costs. You're just moving the dollars from one entertainment economy to another, not growing both.

With an increase of taxes, that means disposable income shrinks. That shrinks the economy. Burdening citizens with an outrageous purchases does exactly that. It doesn't matter if its 25 thousand different citizens or not. There's just the X amount of dollars going towards local entertainment from Calgarians. Those are the laws of economics.

What did you think, people magically had more money just because "Flames"?

[DJones]

Originally Posted by Azure

Which is an acceptable compromise in my opinion. Do whatever the hell it takes to make sure it works, but no public money for the building itself.

That was their plan the whole time.

The arena costs 450, they are willing to fund 450.

If Calgary doesn't want a field house that's up to them. The owners aren't going to spend the money on something they'll be lucky to break even on.

Hope the owners just sell the stamps. Waste of money going forward

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by calgaryblood

He's Muslim and brown so he had to have taxi buddies high up....even though what he was asking from Uber was totally reasonable and the taxi industry has totally crumbled in Calgary while he was in power.

I'm sorry, what?!

At best that statement is presumptuous and prejudicial. At worst it's racist. WTF man.

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by spetch

That's a bit of a stretch to say the out of towner would of spent that money in the city anyways. Not impossible, but very very unlikely.

I can use use an actual example that I know was fact. 10 people that I am aware of went to Garth. 2 couples stayed at the Fairmont $300x2. 8 of us went to Ruth's Chris for supper ($700) and 2 others went to the melting pot (no idea their cost say $75). Breakfast/coffee/gas on the way out for the 4 of us that stayed over ($160)

That is $1535 that was not going to Edmonton businesses if it wasn't for the concert.


Things can be spun anyway. I don't have a say cause I am an out of towner, all I can give is my thoughts. I know I will be giving up my seats after next season. 20ish% of the reason being the dome/parking which CalgaryNext was gonna make even worse

I agree with you and your hypothetical, which is why i said it wasn't necessarily correct.

I think the Garth Brooks concert scenario is a one- time thing and really dont think they will be doing that again, so its tough to hang your hat on.

The funny thing about your anecdote is the money being pumped into the economy is mostly going to foreign owned Fairmont, Ruth's Chris, Melting Pot.. hell im sure the gas and snacks were all foreign-owned. So outside of some low paying retail/service jobs, who is really seeing that benefit? (not to mention the fact that all those places mentioned were there before the arena). Does John Smith, power engineer living in Edmonton see that benefit? because he paid for the damn thing.

Even without that, im sure on average, the amount of actual tourism dollars from out-of-towners like you has a negligible effect on the City - or atleast not enough to justify the hundreds of millions in initial capital costs, and most likely an operating loss for the city in the future.

Again, im not saying there isnt a benefit (although all economic studies are unanimous that the benefit is negligible), Im saying the economic benefit argument is way overrated.

[Robo]

This really is bothering me last night was awesome the fans and atmosphere were great and this morning i wake up to this crap. Even if it is just posturing it is still a real crappy time to do it.

[calgaryblood]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

I'm sorry, what?!

At best that statement is presumptuous and prejudicial. At worst it's racist. WTF man.

Um that was the point of my post, there is is zero evidence that Nenshi has friends in the taxi industry and has supported them. The people saying so are assuming because he's brown and Muslim he must be supporting his "friends" in the taxi industry.

[MarkGio]

Originally Posted by Robo

This really is bothering me last night was awesome the fans and atmosphere were great and this morning i wake up to this crap. Even if it is just posturing it is still a real crappy time to do it.

It's the perfect time to do it. When people are emotional and not-thinking (not that people are generally capable of anyways). Flames the playoff team is a bigger loss than Flames the team.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by calgaryblood

Um that was the point of my post, there is is zero evidence that Nenshi has friends in the taxi industry and has supported them. The people saying so are assuming because he's brown and Muslim he must be supporting his "friends" in the taxi industry.

You have to use green text next time. I 100% thought you were saying that seriously.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by Cappy

I agree with you and your hypothetical, which is why i said it wasn't necessarily correct.



I think the Garth Brooks concert scenario is a one- time thing and really dont think they will be doing that again, so its tough to hang your hat on.



The funny thing about your anecdote is the money being pumped into the economy is mostly going to foreign owned Fairmont, Ruth's Chris, Melting Pot.. hell im sure the gas and snacks were all foreign-owned. So outside of some low paying retail/service jobs, who is really seeing that benefit? (not to mention the fact that all those places mentioned were there before the arena). Does John Smith, power engineer living in Edmonton see that benefit? because he paid for the damn thing.



Even without that, im sure on average, the amount of actual tourism dollars from out-of-towners like you has a negligible effect on the City - or atleast not enough to justify the hundreds of millions in initial capital costs, and most likely an operating loss for the city in the future.



Again, im not saying there isnt a benefit (although all economic studies are unanimous that the benefit is negligible), Im saying the economic benefit argument is way overrated.

This is such small, misguided thinking.

John Smith, power engineer, is tied to the economy. If the entire economy is booming, he benefits. If the entire economy is struggling, he struggles. Sure there are outliers, but by in large, everything is connected.

The economy isn't some weirdly isolated system that excludes certain people in certain jobs. Look at the collapse in the oil and gas business, then go talk to the waitresses/waiters/cooks/people in the service and support industries downtown and tell me what they say. For one, you'll find less of them, and the ones that are still employed aren't making as much as they used to.

This "foreign owned" therefore not beneficial to locals is such a load of crap. The "foreign owned" companies still employ locals and contribute to the overall economy.

[Robo]

Originally Posted by MarkGio

It's the perfect time to do it. When people are emotional and not-thinking (not that people are generally capable of anyways). Flames the playoff team is a bigger loss than Flames the team.

Yeah but I'm angry at the team now not the city. The feeling is that they have no loyalty to the city and fans that have supported them for years.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Robo

This really is bothering me last night was awesome the fans and atmosphere were great and this morning i wake up to this crap. Even if it is just posturing it is still a real crappy time to do it.

For about the tenth time in this thread...he/King didnt do this for any other reason than on Tuesday Nenshi unilaterally decided to call NEXT dead. That's why there was a response on Wednesday from CSE/King.

The CBC then decided in all its journalistic integrity to release a story this morning saying that

"Calgary Flames will move without a new arena, says Ken King"

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgar...next-1.4050989


Its sensationalistic nonsense to attract eyes and clicks. It worked.

[Travis Munroe]

Originally Posted by jayswin

The corruption with cab licenses was long before Nenshi, that's been a problem for decades. IIRC he was the first mayor to genuinely attempt to deal with it.

As for the Uber video, that seemed more in line with how he deals with every political issue, the Flames arena battle being a great example, not specific to Uber or being friendly to cab companies.

That's a pretty damning statement you made about Nenshi, so I hoped you'd have more than speculation.

I had to go back and re ready my statement and disagree that it is a pretty damning statement to back up. My point came from reading posts on the first page that people are glad our mayor is standing up and fighting this and not just giving in like previous mayors. Let's not make it sound like our mayor is an angel who doesn't have friends in other places or have a biassed opinion on where money should and should not be spent.

[Travis Munroe]

Originally Posted by calgaryblood

Um that was the point of my post, there is is zero evidence that Nenshi has friends in the taxi industry and has supported them. The people saying so are assuming because he's brown and Muslim he must be supporting his "friends" in the taxi industry.

I would like to be 100% crystal clear that my statement was not in any way directed as you imply and I hope the collective CP community saw it differently than you.

The process and length of resolution with the ride sharing situation compared to other cities compounded by his statements on camera as well as the taxi license market being hit hard which hurt those that were high up the most was why I made the statement.

This all came from reading about our previous mayor doing developers favors and how this mayor is great because he stands up to people. Whether it was the ride sharing situation, the public art debate, etc I am simply saying that Nenshi may stand up to developers (and have tax payers pay for his legal bill although I believe he may have paid back all or some from his own pocket), Nenshi certainly would have friends in other areas.

[EldrickOnIce]

Originally Posted by nik-

People should at least accept that the "economic benefit" argument is BS and just state that they are still interested in giving tax money for the team's profit improvement in spite of this.

Let's at least be honest about this, at least that is a reasonable stance. Still not one I agree with, but at least more informed. Don't rehash untruths.

No. There is economic benefit to the city. That is a truth. It's silly to suggest there isn't.
But it's also silly to suggest there is a half billion of economic benefit. 100 million, in infrastructure to support? 50? I have no idea.
But to suggest there is no economic benefit to having the Flames in Calgary (which will eventually require a new arena) is complete nonsense.

[CorbeauNoir]

I'll ask the same thing I asked in the plan b thread: move where? There's too many tire fire franchises and not enough soft landing spots, especially with another expansion team slot still hanging unresolved. There's nowhere in the west that has the interest or the arena needed to take a pro team and no space to relocate east.

If the owners are really so short-sighted as to dismantle all of their calgary-centered investments because they won't chip in their fair share on an arena, sooner or later someone else with deep pockets will understand the value of investing in the premier sports and event venue for a city of 1.3 million people and Calgary suddenly becomes the soft landing spot in a buyers market. If playing it the way Winnipeg did is what it takes to do it right, so be it.

[polak]

Guarantee no one moves a team into the oldest arena in the league.

There will be no NHL team playing in the Saddledome in 10 years.

[CorbeauNoir]

Originally Posted by polak

Guarantee no one moves a team into the oldest arena in the league.

It won't be the oldest arena in the league. It'll be a new arena built with a cut of private funding that actually reflects the value of private benefit it'll generate. Again, like Winnipeg.

This of course all assumes that there's a viable location to act as a relocation threat in the first place. Which, I continually have to emphasize, there is not.

[EldrickOnIce]

Originally Posted by CorbeauNoir

It won't be the oldest arena in the league. It'll be a new arena built with a cut of private funding that actually reflects the value of private benefit it'll generate. Again, like Winnipeg.

True North paid $93 million for and own the MTS, which was built initially at a cost of 133.5 million of entirely public funding from the three levels of government.

[Roughneck]

It would take 150 sold out Garth Brooks concerts attended exclusively by out of towners staying the night to generate enough new economic activity to justify the inputs asked of the city. That doesn't help the city's ROI it simply represents activity. Seeing as Calgary and Edmonton will be competing with each other for those out of towners it becomes even more bleak.

The city could generate the same activity by simply giving everybody in the city $400 or so that can only be spent at Calgary bars, restaurants and hotels.