[News] New Arena - Plan B - Victoria Park

[polak]

Nordiques style move if it happens. Core putting it all together. Would be a huge win for whoever gets them.

Im not worried though. This isnt even a full threat yet.

Fact is the city will have to chip in some money or they will eventually leave. No chance the Flames are still playing in the Saddledome in 5 years if there isnt a new arena on the way.

The fact that most big artists skip Calgary on the regular now makes this project even less attractive for private ownership.

[Tinordi]

Interested in Bingo's take on why the city should be more professional and less political.

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by Zarley

I'm surprised at the outrage over what should be obvious. The Flames need a new arena within the next 10-15 years or so to remain a viable franchise. As will the Stampeders need a stadium. Of course they will move if this city lacks a suitable facility - even with all of the fan support in the world, playing in a dilapidated building isn't financially sustainable.

The conversation is not about needing a new arena (most of us agree it's needed), its about who gets to pay for it and why public funds should or should not go to a private enterprise.

[oldschoolcalgary]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcwJt4bcnXs


John Oliver. Obviously he has his point of view too...

funny stuff.

so embed isn't not working

[IamNotKenKing]

CSEC silently waited for the City to do what they said they would do in October, but Nenshi now, on his own, started spewing things not agreed to by council, and CSEC felt obliged to respond. Even city employees don't understand what Nenshi is saying.

The goal is to get the long promised conversation started.

I personally think CalgaryNEXT has great possibility, but understand why some people may not agree. That's fine. The vitriol is completely unnecessary.

We need a new arena, and CSEC simply wants to know where they stand.

My guess is we end up with a Victoria Park arena, fieldhouse owned and run by UofC at McMahon area, and maybe renos to McMahon. The problem with a UofC fieldhouse is the public use would be much more limited than would a CalgaryNEXT option.

[Zarley]

Originally Posted by Table 5

The conversation is not about needing a new arena (most of us agree it's needed), its about who gets to pay for it and why public funds should or should not go to a private enterprise.

Actually, the extend to which the public sector should contribute to a new project is the point of negotiation. No project will happen without some form of taxpayer support.

That's why the outrage over King making a fairly common sense comment is so foolish.

[DiracSpike]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

If they sell to an owner who wants to move you must remember the new owner would have to pay a relocation fee. So right there you can take at least $100 million off the sale price because that has to go to the relocation fee. Nevermind the fact that if they indicate they will bail without an arena, they basically lose all their leverage in any potential sale since everyone knows they're desperate to unload. It's a piss poor approach to negotiating that will ultimately ensure they sell the team for less, possibly even significantly less, than they could if they were smarter about this. They have handled this situation even worse than Edmonton did, which is kind of something Ken King said wouldn't happen. Then again given King's track record, when he says something is going to happen, it usually doesn't.

Relocation fee for the jets was 60 mill. Maybe it's out somewhere that the NHL is charging 100 now, even if so it's still a huge profit for the owners. Anyone willing to sell a team is usually desperate to sell, the arena deal is wide open public info so I can't see how that effects negatiations all that much.

All I'm saying is it's a possibility, that is becoming more and more likely every year.

Edit:
And yes, we've allllll seen the John Oliver segment on stadiums. Please everyone stop linking it, it's already happened twice in this thread, or I'll be forced to post links to the benefits of LA Live.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

The threat to move is not credible. You'd have to be a gullible munchkin to buy​ that fantasy.

So you think the Flames owners will pay the majority of the cost to build the facilities? If you think that's going to happen you are in fact the gullible munchkin. Essentially you are saying you believe the city will eventually cave in because you don't feel the move is credible and we all know the Flames will not pay up all or most of the costs.

[stone hands]

Originally Posted by DiracSpike

Relocation fee for the jets was 60 mill. Maybe it's out somewhere that the NHL is charging 100 now, even if so it's still a huge profit for the owners. Anyone willing to sell a team is usually desperate to sell, the arena deal is wide open public info so I can't see how that effects negatiations all that much.

All I'm saying is it's a possibility, that is becoming more and more likely every year.

Edit:
And yes, we've allllll seen the John Oliver segment on stadiums. Please everyone stop linking it, it's already happened twice in this thread, or I'll be forced to post links to the benefits of LA Live.

If you want to trade counter examples, you're going to run out of them a lot sooner than the other side pretty quickly

[polak]

Doesn't matter how many John Oliver links are posted. The team will move without some public money for the arena.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by polak

Doesn't matter how many John Oliver links are posted. The team will move without some public money for the arena.

People should at least accept that the "economic benefit" argument is BS and just state that they are still interested in giving tax money for the team's profit improvement in spite of this.

Let's at least be honest about this, at least that is a reasonable stance. Still not one I agree with, but at least more informed. Don't rehash untruths.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Table 5

The conversation is not about needing a new arena (most of us agree it's needed), its about who gets to pay for it and why public funds should or should not go to a private enterprise.

If I can just add something here, for me, it's about why public funds should or should not go to a private enterprise in exchange for equity or compensation in the form of return of capital..

I have yet to hear a financial motivation for the tax payers of the city of calgary for this.

What is the economic incentive to do this for anyone but the Flames?

[djsFlames]

Maybe the proverbial ball will start rolling for real when Nenshi is gone. He clearly doesn't give a damn. And KK isn't going anywhere it appears.
Flames/pro sports/entertainment are important to the city. Having a proper venue to host events is part of what draws people to it. You can't reject a sports complex proposal, infer that its not in the city's best interests and then go and survey the city for a potential Olympic bid. A new building has to get built. Figure out what's feasible and get it done. ####ers.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by SeanCharles

We have the oldest arena in the league and a new arena will do wonders for the economy

This is simply not true.

If it were, they would have built a new arena years ago, and we'd be talking about the next one already.

We can bitch and moan about Nenshi and "smalltown thinking" or whatever, but this is still Calgary. If a new rink (or gigantic island arena/stadium) is going to do wonders for the economy, it will happen.

There's no angle here where people are just refusing out of spite for the rich guys in the oil business.

[stone hands]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

If I can just add something here, for me, it's about why public funds should or should not go to a private enterprise in exchange for equity or compensation in the form of return of capital..

I have yet to hear a financial motivation for the tax payers of the city of calgary for this.

What is the economic incentive to do this for anyone but the Flames?

You get to pay more property taxes and higher ticket prices so you can move around a concourse that doesnt have a big truck parked in front of pocket dawgs?

[HotHotHeat]

Originally Posted by Clarkey

Calgary always wants to punch above its weight to prove it is a legitimate big city until it comes to bucking up a few 100 mil for a professional sports and event venue and then it's time to switch to small town mode. Our owners give so much to the community, they built Calgary economically and don't make much off the Flames (Franchise appreciation aside), it's time to buck up and get this done.

Yes, the owners are the real victims.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by stone hands

You get to pay more property taxes and higher ticket prices so you can move around a concourse that doesnt have a big truck parked in front of pocket dawgs?

Except it will be Pockét Chiens and you'll pay 40% more for those too.

[Bunk]

You guys need to chill out a bit. Just very predictable posturing and drama before things come to a head.

For Nenshi's part, him suggesting CalgaryNEXT is dead is merely stating the obvious - and pushing the conversation finally to what the City is really talking about, which is Plan B. Read the re-cast City budget and this fact is hiding in plain sight.

In fact calling CalgaryNEXT dead 18 months after it was introduced is probably being too charitable. The thing was dead on arrival. Council kept it alive way, way too long following the scathing feasibility report.

Ken King's comment, while annoying and probably sloppily delivered ultimately is not new information, just simple posturing.

I think the City knows what it is prepared to do, if I were them, I'd put it out there for public consumption soon. Put the ball back in the Flames' court. I think that's what happens in the next 6 weeks.

[sketchyt]

I just wanted to point out, this whole thing is straight out of the divisive politics playbook.

Both sides, the CSEC and the City, are trying to divide the population on an issue. We've seen this countless times and it's happening at alarming frequency especially when there's a lot of money involved.

You're going to see highly biased and planned town halls, focus groups, panels, etc... You're going to see 'experts' hired. What you're not going to see publicly are these people in the same room together discussing the issue. We won't see it because it's not going to happen.

We'll only see the planned outcomes in these discussions... usually boiled down into two groups (i.e. We're gonna move or else VS GTFO Flames! Ken King VS Nenshi, shiny new toy VS vocal minority, etc...). At this point, it's easy to galvanize either group with misinformation, emotional speaking points, name-calling, etc... There are many public-policy making methodologies that revolve around this type of thinking.

At the end of the day it's the common citizen that doesn't get the actual facts because we were too busy trying to 'win' and joining a side without a thought for our individual self.

There's a lot of people who are on CP. At minimum they're monitoring it. We already saw a Calgary Flames Ambassador board member start a petition and post it on here. That will be just the start.

The best thing IMO you can do regardless of your opinion on the project is to demand information, question the information you do get, and as best you can hold your Alderman, Mayor, business owners, and stakeholders accountable for that information.

[Roughneck]

Originally Posted by shogged

Raiders left, any team can leave in my opinion. Hell, the raiders even had local government support for a new stadium in the beginning.

Not the first time the Raiders have left.