I guess i am just a little surprised that Nenshi is being raked over the coals a bit here...
this is all i found in the print media:
“The thing about a new arena project, and I’ll use those terms because CalgaryNEXT, the West Village project, is dead,” Nenshi said when asked if the federal government’s planned Canada Infrastructure Bank could be used to pay for CalgaryNEXT.
“But, the thing about a new arena project is that our first criteria has always been public money for public benefit, so it really is up to the Calgary Sports and Entertainment (Corp.) to figure out what the public benefit is,” the mayor continued.
while one doesn't get sense of tone from print, the words themselves don't seem particularly inflammatory... One can argue that his use of the word 'dead' doesn't leave any room to maneuver, however i highly doubt those words are devoid of context from being a part of the council discussions off the record...
From my interpretation, CalgaryNext wouldn't qualify for addition monies from the Canadian Infrastructure Bank, and without that source of funding, the project is, in his opinion, dead...
doesn't seem that bad to me?
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I guess i am just a little surprised that Nenshi is being raked over the coals a bit here...
this is all i found in the print media:
“The thing about a new arena project, and I’ll use those terms because CalgaryNEXT, the West Village project, is dead,” Nenshi said when asked if the federal government’s planned Canada Infrastructure Bank could be used to pay for CalgaryNEXT.
“But, the thing about a new arena project is that our first criteria has always been public money for public benefit, so it really is up to the Calgary Sports and Entertainment (Corp.) to figure out what the public benefit is,” the mayor continued.
while one doesn't get sense of tone from print, the words themselves don't seem particularly inflammatory... One can argue that his use of the word 'dead' doesn't leave any room to maneuver, however i highly doubt those words are devoid of context from being a part of the council discussions off the record...
From my interpretation, CalgaryNext wouldn't qualify for addition monies from the Canadian Infrastructure Bank, and without that source of funding, the project is, in his opinion, dead...
doesn't seem that bad to me?
I thought the same thing. It's about providing better concrete benefits for public partnerships. If everything came through and made sense it could be a fit, but that's not the scenario.
It's not a huge thing to comprehend. I read the useless Sun article on the Flames franchise providing public benefit. Ok, fine. They already play in a competent facility for hockey. If they lose out on concerts, what does that have to do with the hockey team?
Maybe Olympic funding could resuscitate it, but at this point that is hearsay.
You don't think a 200M-1B dollar expense that wasn't budgeted for wouldn't effect your property taxes?
Where do these numbers come from? Oh, that's right, the city did some of their own numbers and included infrastructure that has nothing to do with the direct project plus financing costs that the CalgaryNext proposal would pay back as they pay back the CRL.
What everyone needs to get their heads around is that the city will need to spend this money even if there is no project that happens. Because Bronconnier and his band of idiots (including the incompetent Joe Ceci our wonderful NDP Finance Minister) bought the creosote lands at a discount, and agreed that they would be responsible for cleanup, this land is the responsibility of the city. NO developer will ever pay to purchase the land without the cleanup being done.
As a long time citizen I hope they get something worked out to get a project done. What I hope is that the Flames build their own arena and tell the city to build their own fieldhouse (which we all know will never be done). I just wish the conversation was more fact based and less emotional based.
In every major arena/facility project I have researched there has been some sort of government involvement from tax breaks to direct cash. How the parties get to that point is negotiating between them. For Nenshi to come out and say it is done is poor leadership and political grandstanding, I guess he can go back to council today and ask for another vote on secondary suites in our neigbourhoods.
The indoor CFL stadium was one of my big issues with CalgaryNext. No one wants to go sit inside to watch a football game on a beautiful summer eve.
Also, because of the way this was going to be a convertible fieldhouse, stuff like monster truck shows and large concerts would never be possible. Soccer would be possible. The problem is you want to be able to use the fieldhouse, so the goal would be to have as few big events as possible in there, not as many as possible.
Why wouldn't concerts be possible? Assuming that these are large enough that a new arena wouldn't be big enough to host it, these would be occurring on a rare occasion, and doesn't require the venue being structured in a certain way to make it feasible.
How many shows a year does Commonwealth and BC Place get?
Why wouldn't concerts be possible? Assuming that these are large enough that a new arena wouldn't be big enough to host it, these would be occurring on a rare occasion, and doesn't require the venue being structured in a certain way to make it feasible.
How many shows a year does Commonwealth and BC Place get?
Sorry, shouldn't have said concerts would be impossible, but they would be discouraged, due to taking up fieldhouse time. No one would actively be trying to book concerts in there, and thus they would likely never happen.
Monster Trucks probably wouldn't technically be impossible either, but they would take away fieldhouse use for probably at least a week, which of course would be totally unacceptable. Concerts taking away the fieldhouse use for 2-3 days would already be unacceptable enough.
Where do these numbers come from? Oh, that's right, the city did some of their own numbers and included infrastructure that has nothing to do with the direct project plus financing costs that the CalgaryNext proposal would pay back as they pay back the CRL.
What everyone needs to get their heads around is that the city will need to spend this money even if there is no project that happens. Because Bronconnier and his band of idiots (including the incompetent Joe Ceci our wonderful NDP Finance Minister) bought the creosote lands at a discount, and agreed that they would be responsible for cleanup, this land is the responsibility of the city. NO developer will ever pay to purchase the land without the cleanup being done.
As a long time citizen I hope they get something worked out to get a project done. What I hope is that the Flames build their own arena and tell the city to build their own fieldhouse (which we all know will never be done). I just wish the conversation was more fact based and less emotional based.
In every major arena/facility project I have researched there has been some sort of government involvement from tax breaks to direct cash. How the parties get to that point is negotiating between them. For Nenshi to come out and say it is done is poor leadership and political grandstanding, I guess he can go back to council today and ask for another vote on secondary suites in our neigbourhoods.
First
I'll take the cities assessment over an ambitious flames ownership groups
Second
These costs in fact DO pertain directly to the arena as the area would need to be cleaned, transit and roadways would need to be altered, etc. These are very real issues that need money to be addressed, public money, as the Calgary flames are not going to spend hundreds of millions of dollars cleaning up creosote and fixing crowchild
Third
You seem to be extremely misinformed from the costs involved, to the benefit of an arena(hint: there is none https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.forb...yers-lose/amp/) to the very simple fact that public infrastructure is paid with public dollars and that money, when not budgeted, has to come from somewhere(your property taxes that you seem so upset with already)
Nenshi needs to go before a plan B can be put to the table. If it's not an opera house, he's not interested
Really? The guy that pushed ahead with the Airport Tunnel, the four new recreation centres, the new Library, the Green Line LRT and now possibly an LRT connector to the airport?
Seems like he's interested in more than just 'opera houses'. Which, by the way, is being built on the Stampede grounds without taxpayer money.
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My, and your, property taxes are not increased because of financing of this project. The financing is covered by payments from the Flames and development in the area. Our property taxes are increased by pet projects that add no real value to anyone, i.e. the Blue Ring, the Fish Art on the walls of the underpass below Macleod Trail at Glenmore, the $25M bridge that could have been bid on and built for 25% of the cost.
I understand that you hate this project but let's not distort the facts. The City is being asked to "lend" their ability to get financing at a cheaper rate than the Flames. The only direct money they are being asked to contribute, which I believe is a throw away in this whole project, is for a fieldhouse that the City Council has stated for years is needed but has never been budgeted for. I also believe that the city has no intention of ever building this fieldhouse but are using it for political purposes come election time, i.e. "we need this for our citizens and we will get the funding included", then once in office they never discuss it again.
Understand that it's not just me that hates the project, the vast majority of Flames fans hate the project. This thing is like Trumpcare, it's true popularity is probably around 20%. Using public works as some kind of "well we waste money on that, why not CalgaryNEXT" continues to ignore the extremely important reality: Public works can be accessed at little to no cost to the taxpayer (none in the examples you used), while CalgaryNEXT will be a closed access facility for the arena that will increase prices (at a minimum by 20%) and decrease capacity, while the fieldhouse will not be a 100% pubic access facility like it should be. Flames can build their own arena, city can build its own fieldhouse. Sounds like everyone wins in that scenario, except the Stamps who don't deserve a new stadium no matter how much people want them to have one (nevermind that an indoor one could badly backfire).
As far as the fieldhouse as some kind of political pawn....I mean really? The amateur athlete vote is ummmm....yeah a really small voting block. A borderline irrelevant voting block actually. Thinking a fieldhouse is actually a serious driver of votes is hilarious. It's just not, people aren't going to be on the fence come election time and decide "Well they wanna build a fieldhouse so I'm in". Don't be disingenuous, most people wouldn't even know they wanna do a fieldhouse without CalgaryNEXT coming to light.
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I think people are just showing their disdain for Nenshi's delivery style, but really can't fault him for going to bat for the taxpayer.
he used to be loved. The power has gone to his head and now he's unilaterally making huge decisions with no vote and making arrogant remarks like "it's dead".
public money for public benefit? Let's see how many third parties benefit in the coming weeks as this city turns red
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Where do these numbers come from? Oh, that's right, the city did some of their own numbers and included infrastructure that has nothing to do with the direct project plus financing costs that the CalgaryNext proposal would pay back as they pay back the CRL.
What everyone needs to get their heads around is that the city will need to spend this money even if there is no project that happens. Because Bronconnier and his band of idiots (including the incompetent Joe Ceci our wonderful NDP Finance Minister) bought the creosote lands at a discount, and agreed that they would be responsible for cleanup, this land is the responsibility of the city. NO developer will ever pay to purchase the land without the cleanup being done.
As a long time citizen I hope they get something worked out to get a project done. What I hope is that the Flames build their own arena and tell the city to build their own fieldhouse (which we all know will never be done). I just wish the conversation was more fact based and less emotional based.
In every major arena/facility project I have researched there has been some sort of government involvement from tax breaks to direct cash. How the parties get to that point is negotiating between them. For Nenshi to come out and say it is done is poor leadership and political grandstanding, I guess he can go back to council today and ask for another vote on secondary suites in our neigbourhoods.
You aren't looking at the flames numbers.
The flames looked at the cities numbers and replied and stated it would take 900 million in City funds and 450 million in flames funds to build Calgary next.
Building the field house, cleaning up the creosote and developing the west village without CalgaryNext is 500 million cheaper than the flames proposal and comes with far less risk.
So is a 500 million dollar city contribution worth it for a Stadium and an Arena.
In the absence of CalgaryNext the creosote and infrastructure requirements get paid for by the CRL instead of the CRL going to the building. CRL money is not free. It is revenue that is displaced from other areas.
he used to be loved. The power has gone to his head and now he's unilaterally making huge decisions with no vote and making arrogant remarks like "it's dead".
public money for public benefit? Let's see how many third parties benefit in the coming weeks as this city turns red
Anecdotal frustration and not making huge decisions with no voting (he is not circumventing the City Council decision making process). But I get you. That said his approval is still at 56% after 7 years in office, and that's pretty remarkable.
The next time we get a mayor in the back pocket of corporate interests and spending like a drunken sailor, I think you'll appreciate Nenshi's tenure more in hindsight.
Bingo, correct me if I have this wrong, but your position here almost seems like you want the city to act as a developer.
Your stance has constantly come across as "CalgaryNEXT isn't that great, but the city is unreasonable because they won't come up with their own concept, and the mayor saying "no" to a proposal that ultimately the city needs to approve or deny isn't a constructive manner of moving the process forward".
If they don't like CalgaryNEXT, my impression is you feel the city should be the ones putting together a proposal for an alternate location, and an alternate funding structure.
There are absolutely examples of cities acting as developers, it happens all the time, but it is something Calgary has shied away from, except for some arms-length work with CMLC.
Is it your view that the city should act as a developer of private lands, and spin up the resources required to act as such? Currently, that capability doesn't really exist within the city, and what you are asking them to do is outside of their current operating scope.
If the argument here is that the city should act as a developer, bring in those capabilities to their organization, and bear the risks that these projects entail, I feel that is possibly a larger discussion. Currently, we turn to the free market for development, and it is the city's role to approve or deny applications. Not to fund them. Not to design them. Is this something you feel should fundamentally change, and our civic structure should expand to perform these duties?
I would be very open to the idea of the city proposing the Flames work with CMLC. In fact I'd be down right excited about it.
The thing is, speaking of organizations who don't have the capabilities to act as developers, the Flames are struggling to do something that is also outside of their core business. So here we are.
he used to be loved. The power has gone to his head and now he's unilaterally making huge decisions with no vote and making arrogant remarks like "it's dead".
public money for public benefit? Let's see how many third parties benefit in the coming weeks as this city turns red
well, i think he's done a pretty good job, especially considering the economic downturn...
that said, its a democracy, so people that think "the power has gone to head" can vote him out the next election....
Idon't think contributing public money is the main issue; its the scale of project, the location of the project and how much public funds are expected to be kicked in...
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He cant win, if he gives them the cash hes Idiot Spendshi and if he doesnt hes a jerk who hates the Flames.
He's already winning in my eyes by forcing the issue and making this entire process a lot more intrusive than many mayors would. The next proposal CSEC pitches is going to be a hell of a lot better than the first one from a financial standpoint and I'd bet that once that is further negotiated, a new building will end up being much more reasonable for all.
Nenshi becomes the jerk who hates the Flames when he resorts to the juvenile tactics he's relied upon in the past by getting personal and overstepping his bounds.
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