[News] New Arena - Plan B - Victoria Park

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Bingo

They way I see it they started the negotiation with the exact deal the Oilers got which is a pretty logical place to start in my mind.

That doesn't mean they are going to get it, but wouldn't you want and expect the same thing if you were an owner?

If they had doubled the Edmonton City offer as a starting point I think you'd be spot on, but they didn't.

Okay, now this is a fair point. I think this is important.

As a business you'd point to the Edmonton deal and say: "This is what a comparable entity received and we are using this for a starting point."

And thats fair.

But as non-connected individuals we know that the City of Edmonton made a stupid deal. I still dont really know why. They didnt have to capitulate like that. But they did.

So you've got the Flames who obviously want to start there and you've got the City who are saying that the Flames' opening stance isnt even on the map.

Extreme to extreme. Its not one-way traffic.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Roughneck

And the city countered with a logical starting point: this isn't Edmonton, what the Oilers got doesn't matter.


I am more than happy to have the City of Edmonton pay for the Flames new arena, there isn't an amount high enough I would object to.

What was their counter again? I must have missed it

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by Bingo

You have pretty low expectations for the city then.

I don't.

they are paid with our tax dollars to represent us in what's best for the city. Sitting back and doing nothing until something comes along they like is a fair amount below what I would consider acceptable effort, response and thought.

Glad you're happy though!

The Flames opened with the Oilers offer. That's not an embarrassment to anyone, it's a logical starting point.

They aren't sitting back and doing nothing, city council has more on its plate then the Calgary Flames arena project. It's a complete waste of their time to look at a flimsy CalgaryNext and "counter" it. The job is on the Flames to make this a legitimate project.

I don't know why the onus is on the city to make this viable. It's on the Flames, it's their arena. If they want something that benefits the city financially as well, if they want a true partnership then prove it will a real offer that benefits both.

If I go to council with a commercial development it's up to me to make that project work. I can't go in with a terrible proposal and when council says no go "Come on guys, work with me! Do all this work for me.. counter it". It's up to me to make it viable. Especially if I expect YOU to pay for it.

[CliffFletcher]

Poll question:

"If the Flames threatened to move the team out of Calgary, how much public funding would you support the City and Province putting towards a new arena?"

A) None.

B) Up to $50 million.

C) Up to $200 million

D) Up to $500 million

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by Bingo

What was their counter again? I must have missed it

Don't know if it was an official counter, don't know if that is needed but they did dangle this big juicy thick hot carrot in front of the Flames.

It's the very first post of the thread.
http://calgaryherald.com/news/local-...-victoria-park

[Roughneck]

Originally Posted by Bingo

What was their counter again? I must have missed it

'No.' was the counter.

And 'maybe there's something worth looking into with Victoria Park, we will let you know.'

Also 'CalgaryNEXT deal is dead.'

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

They aren't sitting back and doing nothing, city council has more on its plate then the Calgary Flames arena project. It's a complete waste of their time to look at a flimsy CalgaryNext and "counter" it. The job is on the Flames to make this a legitimate project.

I don't know why the onus is on the city to make this viable. It's on the Flames, it's their arena. If they want something that benefits the city financially as well, if they want a true partnership then prove it will a real offer that benefits both.

If I go to council with a commercial development it's up to me to make that project work. I can't go in with a terrible proposal and when council says no go "Come on guys, work with me! Do all this work for me.. counter it". It's up to me to make it viable. Especially if I expect YOU to pay for it.

I'm not saying they have nothing to do but CalgaryNEXT, never have.

Hell I've never said I like CalgaryNEXT, or that I like public dollars going to it. I can completely understand the wish to have the Flames build their own building.

I'm just sick of the arrogance and politicking by our mayor and I think we deserve better.

The CSEC had a proposal that wasn't very popular, but it did provide a starting point for developing the west village, dealing with creosote, getting the city a field house, and then later a potential assist to an olympic bid.

Some on this site make it sound like the proposal was a one pager that simply said "Hey why don't you buy us a new home!?!".

Be professional, that's all I ask. We haven't seen that yet.

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by Bingo

You have pretty low expectations for the city then.

I don't.

they are paid with our tax dollars to represent us in what's best for the city. Sitting back and doing nothing until something comes along they like is a fair amount below what I would consider acceptable effort, response and thought.

Glad you're happy though!

Here's the City sitting back and doing nothing....

Rocky Ridge Rec Centre


Quarry Park Rec Centre


Seton Rec Centre


Great Plains Rec Centre



While CalgaryNEXT has been flapping in the wind for a decade, The City is actually getting things done and building Calgarians sporting facilities they can actually use.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Well what you think of the Mayor and if we deserve better is slightly of topic for this thread then, and you're letting that bias seep into your posts here. His Worship saying CalgaryNext is done is hardly all that grandstanding. He might have officially jumped the gun slightly, but we all know it's done.

CalgaryNext might not have been one page but it was shockingly thin and shortsighted proposal for all the time and hype (Muta) we saw prior. Terrible location, complete lack of acess and egress, no actual arena design etc etc. Maybe not one page.. Maybe five?

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Then you say we can't put public dollars in any project like this for the foreseeable future. Say that.

The City and Mayor have repeatedly said they don't want to give public money to private projects. Every time the project comes up, that's the response they give.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I'm not saying they have nothing to do but CalgaryNEXT, never have.

Hell I've never said I like CalgaryNEXT, or that I like public dollars going to it. I can completely understand the wish to have the Flames build their own building.

I'm just sick of the arrogance and politicking by our mayor and I think we deserve better.

The CSEC had a proposal that wasn't very popular, but it did provide a starting point for developing the west village, dealing with creosote, getting the city a field house, and then later a potential assist to an olympic bid.

Some on this site make it sound like the proposal was a one pager that simply said "Hey why don't you buy us a new home!?!".

Be professional, that's all I ask. We haven't seen that yet.

The flames proposal was "build us a new home though". It was not up to the industry standard for a project of that size. The city then looked into the creosote issue and the surrounding infrastructure and financing models to estimate what the costs would be and came back at 1.7 billion. The flames then looked at those numbers and put together what should have been their original proposa at 1.3 billion. Then the city said that doesn't work for us.

I don't see the grand standing or lack of negotiations. The city spent money doing the Flames job. That's already more than they would do for a business with that napkin level first proposal.

Both sides agree that the city would have to pay 900 million for Calgary next and the city wants to do another 150 million in infrastructure in addition to that. Outside of saying we are not interested in funding that project what should be the counter.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Roughneck

'No.' was the counter.

And 'maybe there's something worth looking into with Victoria Park, we will let you know.'

Also 'CalgaryNEXT deal is dead.'

So my point stands. Thanks

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Table 5

Here's the City sitting back and doing nothing....

While CalgaryNEXT has been flapping in the wind for a decade, The City is actually getting things done and building Calgarians sporting facilities they can actually use.

Are you honestly thinking my view was that the city was doing nothing? Really?

I guess the splashy picture answer is worth just moving the goal posts completely?

Come on man.

[Tinordi]

What should the City have done Bingo?

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

Well what you think of the Mayor and if we deserve better is slightly of topic for this thread then, and you're letting that bias seep into your posts here. His Worship saying CalgaryNext is done is hardly all that grandstanding. He might have officially jumped the gun slightly, but we all know it's done.

CalgaryNext might not have been one page but it was shockingly thin and shortsighted proposal for all the time and hype (Muta) we saw prior. Terrible location, complete lack of acess and egress, no actual arena design etc etc. Maybe not one page.. Maybe five?

a guy posts pictures of other projects and I'm off topic?

you say bias and then say "slightly" above when other civic officials are saying he did in fact jump the gun.

The mayor is representing the city at least in face in a pretty important negotiation and he can't keep himself out of the way. That's an issue in any project gong forward.

In a calendar year you have the Uber, can't do math, and now CalgaryNEXT is dead debacles, so yeah I see an issue.

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Are you honestly thinking my view was that the city was doing nothing? Really?

You were the one saying that the City had no vision and were sitting back and doing nothing. They do have a vision....it's just not aligning with that of the Flames and people like yourselves. While to you being responsible with tax payer dollars means helping the Flames, to others it means funding sports by building rec facilities that people can use.

I guess the splashy picture answer is worth just moving the goal posts completely?

They are not splashy pictures. They are tangible projects. Those rec were all approved in the summer of 2012....two of them are already open, two are currently under construction.

Collectively the price for all 4 was $480 million. These are the types of things that would not be able to be build with public funds if you spend a few hundred million on a private arena.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

What should the City have done Bingo?

I would want my representatives (the city for the tax payers) to look at every project that comes their way for civic gain.

rip the CalgaryNEXT deal apart and come back with a counter that they like, doesn't have to even be a transact-able deal, can be a city favoured proposal that gets into items in a term sheet format that can be looked at by both sides.

if the deal breakers break the deal then you gave it a shot. If they don't, then maybe the CSEC moves substantially on many items and a year and a half later there might be a project emerging.

or if you simply don't want a project in the west village of that size come out and say that. Give some reasons and put an end to it.

Instead we got grandstanding and self promotion. Sad.

[stone hands]

Originally Posted by Dion

To be fair the ownership group has put a lot back into the community and deserve some credit for that.

Daryl and Don Seaman who generiously donated the money to build Seaman Stadium as well as the Duvernay Rose Tourmaline Field House in Okotoks. Also in 2001, along with his brothers, B.J. and Don, Doc provided $2 million in funding for the establishment of the Seaman Family MR Research Centre at the Calgary Health Region/University of Calgary Faculty of Medicine. In 2007, the centre became home to the neuroArm, the world’s first MRI-compatible surgical robot, which revolutionized neurosurgery and other branches of operative medicine by liberating them from the constraints of the human hand.

Of course there's The Flames foundation.

http://calgaryflamesfoundation.com/who-we-are/

Being charitable and active in the community is great but doesn't entitle them to public funds

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Table 5

You were the one saying that the City had no vision and were sitting back and doing nothing. They do have a vision....it's just not aligning with that of the Flames and people like yourselves. While to you being responsible with tax payer dollars means helping the Flames, to others it means funding sports by building rec facilities that people can use.

Where did I say that? Have gone out of my way to say I don't like CalgaryNEXT and that I'm fine with people saying they don't want tax payer dollars in the project.

Why put words in my mouth?

I didn't say any of that. The city has 100 issues going on at every time, pointing to other buildings is irrelevant because I'm not accusing city hall of doing nothing.

My beef is with the lack of professionalism with the mayor. He's had a pretty rough year.

[shotinthebacklund]

I also cant help but feel the mayor made this a personal vendetta. I feel he has not been inline with what my expectations of how a mayor should respond to such a project so heavily involving all city residents.

Originally Posted by Bingo

a guy posts pictures of other projects and I'm off topic?

you say bias and then say "slightly" above when other civic officials are saying he did in fact jump the gun.

The mayor is representing the city at least in face in a pretty important negotiation and he can't keep himself out of the way. That's an issue in any project gong forward.

In a calendar year you have the Uber, can't do math, and now CalgaryNEXT is dead debacles, so yeah I see an issue.