[News] New Arena - Plan B - Victoria Park

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by IamNotKenKing

But, the City is not going above and beyond in any way, shape or form, and has not actually told CSEC anything about what they are prepared to do on Plan B. Absolutely nothing. They would not treat any other major City employer like this.

The city actually went and did calculations on CalgaryNext, when it was completely obvious what the numbers were going to say.

That is by definition, above and beyond.

Why would the city volunteer itself to do the work of a private company? Why would the city start planning a new office tower for Suncor, if suncor needed more space?

The arena is for private profit, it's not the city's business to plan it for the private enterprise. The private enterprise should be involving the city in its process, not having the city do the process for them.

[Tinordi]

The project's been all but dead in the public discussion for a year, in private it would have been even clearer how dead it was. Did Nenshi say to King "It's dead"? Maybe not but he wouldn't need to for all parties to know it's dead.

[CaptainCrunch]

At some point there's going to have to be a solid plan put into place, and not these half arsed measures and sniping from both sides.

I doubt that the NHL and the Flames are going to want to be saddledome tenants in the next 15 years.

[ComixZone]

I still don't like the idea of adding just an arena (in either location). The east end is cut off from 17th ave by what is effectively a ghetto, so adding a new arena in a location nearby the current spot still won't do anything to promote a fun night life. So unless there are massive development plans attached to it, then it'd be just like if you were to put the arena by itself over in the west end - it'd just be an arena surrounded by a whole bunch of useless crap.

If we want this to be of significant value, then there needs to be a solid development plan around the arena otherwise it accomplishes nothing other than give the Flames a new home. I hope we're looking for something bigger than that. We need restaurants, pubs with live music, shops, etc. etc. etc. to pop up around the arena.

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

The project's been all but dead in the public discussion for a year, in private it would have been even clearer how dead it was. Did Nenshi say to King "It's dead"? Maybe not but he wouldn't need to for all parties to know it's dead.

I'd go so far as to say the city knew with 99% certainty that CalgaryNext was dead the day it was announced.

[Senator Clay Davis]

In theory with CalgaryNEXT now dead (though if something was never alive, can it really be dead?), Plan B Arena should come together pretty quickly. Flames have the money needed through their contribution and the ticket tax to pay for the arena, city apparently can get some federal funds for infrastructure around the arena (I think I'm reading that right). So ideally this won't drag out too much longer, I would hope we can get an announcement on something by summer. I also approve of calling it Rogers Millions lol.

[calumniate]

Originally Posted by Art Vandelay

Mayor Nenshi says CalgaryNext is dead.

http://calgaryherald.com/news/local-...s-mayor-nenshi

Nenshi sounding more and more like Nietszche

[Lord Carnage]

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

I'd go so far as to say the city knew with 99% certainty that CalgaryNext was dead the day it was announced.

If you're saying that Nenshi had decided, the day it was announced, that he would never be on board with it, then I agree 100%.

He has always had his agendas of what is important, and this has never been on his list.

Note: Though I have my opinion of whether his agenda is right or wrong, I'm not judging that by my above comments... just saying that he isn't generally open to stuff that he doesn't think is important.

[Senator Clay Davis]

CalgaryNEXT was dead the second they put out a presentation a fifth grader would be humiliated by, not because of Nenshi's agenda. You have like 70% of Flames fans on this board who wanted no part of it. When 70% of the core support you should be able to rely on hates your idea...

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

The city and the Flames need to be partners on this. Both need to start acting like it.

Sorry, but this is not a partnership. Only one entity here has a real need. The City of Calgary does not need a new hockey arena for the Flames. The Flames are the ones who need the City because they don't want to spend their own money.

The City is being asked to take on a good part of the financial burden and risk, and none of the financial benefits. Hell of a partnership.

[Lord Carnage]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

CalgaryNEXT was dead the second they put out a presentation a fifth grader would be humiliated by, not because of Nenshi's agenda. You have like 70% of Flames fans on this board who wanted no part of it. When 70% of the core support you should be able to rely on hates your idea...

Not the way I see it. I have no doubt that "70%" of the Flames fans on this board have issue with one part of the project or another, and so are against it overall because they want something different. To say that they want NO part of it is probably embellishment.

The project they put out had many potential snags (from the tax, to the location, to the cleanup, to having a football stadium with a roof, etc) and everyone has attached themselves to their personal issue.

I think if the issue were genuinely looked at from City Hall, maybe jointly some could have been worked through.

Am I saying CalgaryNext was the best thing they could have come up with? No - but I am saying that an open-minded city hall would have benefited the process. That's not something I'm convinced we have, and I attribute that primarily to Nenshi.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Based on KK's comments it doesn't seem like he did.
And Nenshi has shown a pattern of commenting on stuff "off the cuff"
The man loves his sound bites.

The city and the Flames need to be partners on this. Both need to start acting like it.

I expect more out of our top elected city official.

The only things the Flames were interested in a partner for was the bill, and a partner that ate the vast majority of the bill at that. They presented their take or or leave it vision and it was poor. Lets not pretend it's the City being unreasonable here.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Originally Posted by Lord Carnage

Not the way I see it. I have no doubt that "70%" of the Flames fans on this board have issue with one part of the project or another, and so are against it overall because they want something different. To say that they want NO part of it is probably embellishment.

The project they put out had many potential snags (from the tax, to the location, to the cleanup, to having a football stadium with a roof, etc) and everyone has attached themselves to their personal issue.

I think if the issue were genuinely looked at from City Hall, maybe jointly some could have been worked through.

Am I saying CalgaryNext was the best thing they could have come up with? No - but I am saying that an open-minded city hall would have benefited the process. That's not something I'm convinced we have, and I attribute that primarily to Nenshi.

CalgaryNEXT specifically is a stand alone project. Most people here did not want it. So saying they wanted no part of CalgaryNEXT is 100% correct. That's not saying people didn't want a new arena, I would imagine that number is between 85-99% of people want a new arena. But a new arena is an entirely different concept than CalgaryNEXT. CalgaryNEXT appeared to be amateur hour right from the start, and you only get one first impression, which they badly botched. Nenshi has nothing to do with that. As it is, it sounds like Nenshi supports plan B so be happy with that.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by nik-

The only things the Flames were interested in a partner for was the bill, and a partner that ate the vast majority of the bill at that. They presented their take or or leave it vision and it was poor. Lets not pretend it's the City being unreasonable here.

Well in fairness, Edmonton lead the way on that, and there's nothing wrong witht he Flames ownership saying, hey us too.

At some point there will be public money involved here, in might not be the sweatheart deal that the Oilers blackmailed themselves into, But to say, this should all be private money is fine, but it does make the owners to look elsewhere for a deal that does involve public money.

That's just the way pro sports works.

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

At some point there will be public money involved here, in might not be the sweatheart deal that the Oilers blackmailed themselves into, But to say, this should all be private money is fine, but it does make the owners to look elsewhere for a deal that does involve public money.

That's just the way pro sports works.

It only works that way because we are stupid enough to let it.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Well in fairness, Edmonton lead the way on that, and there's nothing wrong witht he Flames ownership saying, hey us too.

At some point there will be public money involved here, in might not be the sweatheart deal that the Oilers blackmailed themselves into, But to say, this should all be private money is fine, but it does make the owners to look elsewhere for a deal that does involve public money.

That's just the way pro sports works.

There are three Canadian markets that paid for their own arena. So that's only the way it works when government is weak.

[Scary Eloranta]

I know this is Flames-centric topic but as a STH for both pro teams it feels like the Stamps are the ugly ginger sister in this situation and will end up getting screwed (I know, oxymoron).

On a similar note, my buddy went to Edm to see Coilers vs Avs and said the upper bowl area is pretty cramped - plus they send you up there on a super long, jammed escalator which he described as being "something from Soylent Green". Let's hope that whatever we end up is better than that!

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by Table 5

Sorry, but this is not a partnership. Only one entity here has a real need. The City of Calgary does not need a new hockey arena for the Flames. The Flames are the ones who need the City because they don't want to spend their own money.

The City is being asked to take on a good part of the financial burden and risk, and none of the financial benefits. Hell of a partnership.

While "need" is a dangerous and interpretive term, your statement about the City and there "need" is actually false.

While I don't dissagree, the Flames "need" a new rink the most, people who flat out feel the city has no role or desire in this is kidding themselves. City definetely "needs" or at the very least, has a strong desire for a facility where Calgarians can go and watch the entertainment products CSE currently provide, along with many other shows and concerts that come and go into town.

To pretend the city would be OK with losing the Flames, and will continue to be OK with having every single artist out on tour by pass Calgary for Edmonton is simply ignorant. There are both financial and quality of life impacts for the city if they don't replace the Dome at some point.

This ins't a black and white issue (nothing in life ever is). I'm not saying it needs to be a 50/50 partnership, and I won't claim to be close enough to the financials for the city (or their municipal priorities) to know "how much" of a stake they should have in this, but to pretend that they don't have one at all is ridiculous.

The city wants or at the very least will want a new arena at some point. That they have a need /desire for this isn't even debatable, what is debatable is appropriate level of support based on their desire, and of course how timing lines up between their desire and needs and the Flames.

It's why I try to steer clear of these threads, but occasionally (clearly) can't help myself. The all or nothing mentality of these debates is painful. I'm totally ok with people's positions of no private funding for projects like this (whether I agree or not) but this suggestion that City shouldn't / doesn't have a stake in this is crazy.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Table 5

It only works that way because we are stupid enough to let it.

Maybe, and I have no horse in the race here as I've never seen the need for public money to billionaires.

However in most cases there has to be some incentive for a team to stay and continue to find ways to maximize revenue streams to keep up with things like escalating salaries and costs.

By simply saying, nertz build it and pay for it yourself, it opens the door to the owners simply stating "Well they didn't say where, and its clear that they don't see the relationship as a partnership". So at the very least and its in their rights to at least explore relocation.

If you look at this province for example and you look at the incentives that Edmonton and the province chucked at the Oilers, is it not realistic for the Flames to say, if Edmonton and the province are willing to do that, then isn't it fair that we should get something equitable?

I just figure that if Nenshi or whoever digs their heels in on this to the point of a hard no then the Flames time in Calgary is probably limited to the next 15 years.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by nik-

The only things the Flames were interested in a partner for was the bill, and a partner that ate the vast majority of the bill at that. They presented their take or or leave it vision and it was poor. Lets not pretend it's the City being unreasonable here.

Take it or leave it vision?

I think that's a terrible way to summarize their presentation to the city. I think Ken King mentioned the term "starting point", "dialogue", etc 100 times in a three months.

You don't have to like it, you don't have to think public money should be in it, but don't let those points sway you into painting everything with a negative brush.