Saddledome Event Recap - Brian Burke State of the Union

[TheScorpion]

Lots of revisionist history this week. First about Jokinen, and now Iginla?

Jarome was a terrific leader who was respected by the vast majority of his teammates. It's only headline-spinning reporters and unintelligent Avalanche fans who truly dislike him. He's one of the greatest of all time, regardless of what the NHL says.

[JerryUnderscore]

Originally Posted by Beninho

His days are done after damaging this teams reputation across the league and with the refs. His days are done after being paid a ridiculous amount of money over the last 5 years. If he wants to be an ass and carry himself like an entitled pos that's his decision. I don't feel pitty for a guy who has banked in an insane amount of money and is now all pissy that he isn't getting playing time. Why anyone would pitty him is beyond me. It's a cut throat business and Wideman should know this, he's benefited greatly from it. I would like to know what Wideman has done for the ref after he may of ended his career. He is "suffering" because of himself and how he has underperformed, I don't feel bad for him for one second. The world is filled with many people who really do struggle every day, maybe Wideman is struggling with something else I don't know, but I will not be empathetic towards someone who has had the career he's had and made the money he's made. Give me a break

Okay, so first a story. When I was first starting out in my chosen career field, I started working for a small NGO. I really believed in what they were doing, so I chose to take significantly less money in order to work for them. When I first started there, they made it seem like my lower salary was a temporary thing until they could get on their feet. However, month after month the director would come to me and say something to the effect of "Yeah, we looked into it and still can't increase your salary. Maybe next month!"

I eventually worked myself into a full-time (paid) position, which I was in for about two years. However, after those two years there was a whole staff change up. They brought in a new director and decided not to renew my contract, even though the entire board agreed I performed above and beyond expectations in my job. Despite the loyalty I had shown to the organization, I was out of a job without anyone able to really give me a reason.

I felt completely betrayed by the organization I had sacrificed so much for.

While Wideman's situation is not perfectly similar, I don't doubt that he probably feels some amount of animosity towards the Flames, especially where this is a contract year. By benching him, they are essentially torpedoing any chance he has for a new contract next year. Is some of it on him? Of course it is, but as TextCritic has pointed out, his body is aging and simply can't do what it used to.

Now, a couple things to keep in mind as well:

1. Wideman started playing hockey in the OHL in 1999. That means for the last 18 years he has done nothing but eat, sleep and breathe hockey. His entire world has been professional hockey since he was 16 years old. He's now on the cusp of the only thing he's ever known being taken away from him.

Human beings crave purpose in life. When we feel that our lives don't matter, it can lead to all kinds of depression. Many people who retire, not just professional athletes, experience this. You suddenly find yourself with way too much time on your hands and nothing that gives your life meaning.


2. About half of all people in the world live on about $4.50 CAD a day. Which means, the vast majority of people in the world would look at the salary you make (even if you make the Alberta minimum wage you're making roughly $25k) and say you're filthy rich. Now... when was the last time you had a really hard day at the office, but came home and said "Well, at least I make lots of money!" There comes a point where the money doesn't matter.

Furthermore, Dennis Wideman whether right or wrong probably believes he deserves to make as much as he's made over his career. He's one of the top 1,000 hockey players in the entire world.

Dennis Wideman probably doesn't see himself as some greedy, entitled hockey player that simply refuses to play good hockey and get trashed by fans. He probably sees himself as someone who has spent the last 20 years becoming one of the best defenceman in the world. He has dedicated himself to being the absolutely best in his field. And now, at a staggeringly quick pace, everything he's ever known is being taken away from him and the organization he's given himself to over the last five years isn't showing him any loyalty.

I'm not saying I want Wideman to get playing time, but I think we can all empathize with what he's going through right now. And if he's finding it a little hard to get motivating in practice knowing he's more than likely not getting into another NHL game ever, that's certainly understandable.

[Krovikan]

Burke releasing information on Brouwer is interesting, because 1/2 the time I swear Burke is sent out to send a message that is to spread disinformation. For example, before drafts all Burke talks about is how we are going to draft big, and get bigger. Then we draft high skill and character as two top priorities and almost ignore size. So I wonder if Flames fans are the targets of a lot of information Burke puts out or if it the league, other teams, or players within the league.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

[Anduril]

Originally Posted by Krovikan

Burke releasing information on Brouwer is interesting, because 1/2 the time I swear Burke is sent out to send a message that is to spread disinformation. For example, before drafts all Burke talks about is how we are going to draft big, and get bigger. Then we draft high skill and character as two top priorities and almost ignore size. So I wonder if Flames fans are the targets of a lot of information Burke puts out or if it the league, other teams, or players within the league.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

Treliving has said and expanded on those comments about how they want to get bigger and be able to play a heavy game. He has said that it's a blend of size, skill and speed.

Edit:
http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/f...ead-nhl-draft/

As Treliving says, ideally every player drafted would 6-foot-5 who can skate like the wind.
But mutants like that are rare.
So balance is the key. That said, Treliving echoes his boss’s desire to beef up the Flames’ roster..."Speed is important and size is important but skill is important too. When I walk into Walmart there isn’t an aisle for big, skilled guys. It’s too simplistic to say you’ll draft fast or big guys. You look at the total package and all things being equal between two guys you take the bigger player."
..Their biggest organizational need is skilled forwards, preferably with some size...

[heep223]

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

In regards to Wideman, he just went from playing in the 4 hole to being a healthy scratch in a matter of about a week, one of the guys pushing him out was a recent AHLer. Hard to blame a guy for having issues finding motivation and being upset after that. Funny thing about athletes, they are real people with real emotions.

A professional would use that as motivation to make themselves better, or find a new role as a mentor to younger guys, or at least have a positive impact in some way. Not pout because his feelings are hurt and have to specifically get spoken to about his attitude multiple times.

Personally, it's not hard for me to blame him at all.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by JerryUnderscore

I'm not saying I want Wideman to get playing time, but I think we can all empathize with what he's going through right now. And if he's finding it a little hard to get motivating in practice knowing he's more than likely not getting into another NHL game ever, that's certainly understandable.

I don't know that we all can really empathize with that. I know I can't.

I guess I can a little bit, because I can understand that it sucks to be faced with going from a job that pays you a hundred grand a week to something else that doesn't and never will come close, but at the same time, boo hoo. He's only 33 years old and his career trajectory is on him.

[Dajazz]

Originally Posted by JerryUnderscore

Okay, so first a story. When I was first starting out in my chosen career field, I started working for a small NGO. I really believed in what they were doing, so I chose to take significantly less money in order to work for them. When I first started there, they made it seem like my lower salary was a temporary thing until they could get on their feet. However, month after month the director would come to me and say something to the effect of "Yeah, we liked into it and still can't increase your salary. Maybe next month!"

I eventually worked myself into a full-time (paid) position, which I was in for about two years. However, after those two years there was a whole staff change up. They brought in a new director and decided not to renew my contract, even though the entire board agreed I performed above and beyond expectations in my job. Despite the loyalty I had shown to the organization, I was out of a job without anyone able to really give me a reason.

I felt completely betrayed by the organization I had sacrificed so much for.

While Wideman's situation is not perfectly similar, I don't doubt that he probably feels some amount of animosity towards the Flames, especially where this is a contract year. By benching him, they are essentially torpedoing any chance he has for a new contract next year. Is some of it on him? Of course it is, but as TextCritic has pointed out, his body is aging and simply can't do what it used to.

Now, a couple things to keep in mind as well:

1. Wideman started playing hockey in the OHL in 1999. That means for the last 18 years he has done nothing but eat, sleep and breathe hockey. His entire world has been professional hockey since he was 16 years old. He's now on the cusp of the only thing he's ever known being taken away from him.

Human beings crave purpose in life. When we feel that our lives don't matter, it can lead to all kinds of depression. Many people who retire, not just professional athletes, experience this. You suddenly find yourself with way too much time on your hands and nothing that gives your life meaning.


2. About half of all people in the world live on about $4.50 CAD a day. Which means, the vast majority of people in the world would look at the salary you make (even if make the Alberta minimum wage you're making roughly $25k) and say you're filthy rich. Now... when was the last time you had a really hard day at the office, but came home and said "Well, at least I make lots of money!" There comes a point where the money doesn't matter.

Furthermore, Dennis Wideman whether right or wrong probably believes he deserves to make as much as he's made over his career. He's one of the top 1,000 hockey players in the entire world.

Dennis Wideman probably doesn't see himself as some greedy, entitled hockey player that simply refuses to play good hockey and get trashed by fans. He probably sees himself as someone who has spent the last 20 years becoming one of the best defenceman in the world. He has dedicated himself to being the absolutely best in his field. And now, at a staggeringly quick pace, everything he's ever known is being taken away from him and the organization he's given himself to over the last five years isn't showing him any loyalty.

I'm not saying I want Wideman to get playing time, but I think we can all empathize with what he's going through right now. And if he's finding it a little hard to get motivating in practice knowing he's more than likely not getting into another NHL game ever, that's certainly understandable.

Nice story, but it has nothing remotely to do with Wideman.

He signed a contract, with it came expectations he didn't meet. On top of that he has underperformed so badly he is scratched and is now reportedly "sabotaging" the organisation by sulking and slacking.

I've been a manager for some 15 years, a better comparison would be that I sign a top salesman from a competitor for big money. He does ok at best 2/5 years, last year he bombs out and beats up a secretary at work while being 80% behind his budget. I tell him to work the mailroom, cut the hours a bit, instead he hangs in the cafeteria moaning about how poorly treated he is....

Yea, poor Wideman.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by GoJetsGo

These are AHL players and they're trying to build an NHL team. They need third line players, as they currently have none.

They also need to reach the cap floor.

Also, they'd be paying the same kind of inflated salary to sign a free agent, possibly more as they'll be a destination viewed as years away from completing.

Not saying they will take him, but the chance is greater than you suggest.

They can also hit the cap floor without taking in bloated contracts with little value. If they want an ideal 3rd liner, they'll have plenty to choose from 30 teams that won't cost them another $4.5M over the next 3 years.

[Cole436]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

Lots of revisionist history this week. First about Jokinen, and now Iginla?

Jarome was a terrific leader who was respected by the vast majority of his teammates. It's only headline-spinning reporters and unintelligent Avalanche fans who truly dislike him. He's one of the greatest of all time, regardless of what the NHL says.

I love Iginla, just like probably 99% of all Flames fans. Easily my favourite player ever, the greatest Flame and the best hockey player that ever laced up for this franchise. But in saying that, there's been too much smoke over the years for me to ignore that comment. I think as a hockey player, a member of our community, and a person his legacy is pretty well cemented.

But in terms of the rumblings of dissent in the locker room over the years, whether it was the Iginla faction vs. the Regher faction during the prime years of that team, the impact of his very noticeable inconsistent two way play as he got older, to even the fact that only Cammy and Tanguay showed up to his trade press conference, it makes me think there's probably truth in those stories. Even all these years later that last point still bugs me. If Yzerman or Sakic ever got traded, I can't imagine that press conference wouldn't be full of their teammates. I think that says something of how the players were feeling at that point.


edit.

Unless it was ####ing Eric Francis who said it, then disregard all the above.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

I think there is a very good chance LV would select Brouwer. It all depends on how they choose to fill their roster during the expansion draft, and there are cap implications that make it quite plausible.

Honestly I hope they do...just don't see it happening

[GoJetsGo]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

They can also hit the cap floor without taking in bloated contracts with little value. If they want an ideal 3rd liner, they'll have plenty to choose from 30 teams that won't cost them another $4.5M over the next 3 years.

Not sure what you expect to be available in the expansion draft but it's likely going to be a lot of similar players and contracts.

I think it's unlikely, but I wouldn't completely count it out as definitively as you seem to be when Vegas's GM has some history with the player. They will need experience and veterans in addition to getting to the cap floor.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by Cole436

I love Iginla, just like probably 99% of all Flames fans. Easily my favourite player ever, the greatest Flame and the best hockey player that ever laced up for this franchise. But in saying that, there's been too much smoke over the years for me to ignore that comment. I think as a hockey player, a member of our community, and a person his legacy is pretty well cemented.

But in terms of the rumblings of dissent in the locker room over the years, whether it was the Iginla faction vs. the Regher faction during the prime years of that team, the impact of his very noticeable inconsistent two way play as he got older, to even the fact that only Cammy and Tanguay showed up to his trade press conference, it makes me think there's probably truth in those stories. Even all these years later that last point still bugs me. If Yzerman or Sakic ever got traded, I can't imagine that press conference wouldn't be full of their teammates. I think that says something of how the players were feeling at that point.


edit.

Unless it was ####ing Eric Francis who said it, then disregard all the above.

Sometimes even under really great leadership, a team can still falter. Then comes the speculation.

Giordano was lauded for being a great captain when the Flames made the playoffs. Early this season, people questioned it. Now he is again being lauded as a really good captain by most.

I don't think his quality of captaincy has changed with how the Flames have experienced varied success under him. I see it the same for Iginla. The greatest captain in the game (whomever that was) couldn't make the Flames a really good team, so I choose not to really believe what people are saying. I have yet to hear a single peep out of former teammates while he was captain, so for me there is no smoke, just wild speculation and assumptions.

[Beninho]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Yes.

[/I]
Yes.

[/I]
That is your prerogative, but I don't understand why you feel the need to direct so much indignation to others who do not share your opinion. There are plenty of good reasons to be sceptical about the second-hand information in the OP.

[/I]
I am not surprised. You have made abundantly clear that empathy is not a priority for you.

[/I]
I expect that Wideman understands how things work in the NHL better than anyone on this board. The nature of the business does not change the fact that his sudden change of fortune is likely very difficult emotionally, and socially. It has to be embarrassing to be faced with the sudden reality that he is no longer capable of doing the job he is paid to do.

[/I]
So would I.

[/I]
He has underperformed because he is aging, and his body is not capable of the same level of physical performance to which he is accustomed. To exacerbate matters, he depends on his physical attributes to earn a living. I will be 44-years-old next month, and this is something I understand very well. It sucks, and I am frequently frustrated by it. Thank god it doesn't affect my ability to provide for my family.


You seem to think that money solves every problem. How small and petty of you.

1. I understand his age, still doesn't change the fact he's paid to do a job
2. I don't have a porogative, I don't like hearing about a player bitch and moan after his team gave him chance after chance to prove his worth.If this makes me a bad person so be it, that is clearly your porogative.
3. Your attempt at stating that I have no empathy for anyone is petty and small, as I clearly stated that I empathize with him if he actually is going through serious problems
4. I didn't direct any anger towards any other poster like you claim. Just stating my opinion, if my wording had so much indignation then you must be a very sensitive person
5. Have a good night!

[Beninho]

Originally Posted by Dajazz

Nice story, but it has nothing remotely to do with Wideman.

He signed a contract, with it came expectations he didn't meet. On top of that he has underperformed so badly he is scratched and is now reportedly "sabotaging" the organisation by sulking and slacking.

I've been a manager for some 15 years, a better comparison would be that I sign a top salesman from a competitor for big money. He does ok at best 2/5 years, last year he bombs out and beats up a secretary at work while being 80% behind his budget. I tell him to work the mailroom, cut the hours a bit, instead he hangs in the cafeteria moaning about how poorly treated he is....

Yea, poor Wideman.

Ohh stop!! You're being a terrible human!! We all should feel terrible for Wideman, and if not the moral police will come and get you!!

[Beninho]

Originally Posted by JerryUnderscore

Okay, so first a story. When I was first starting out in my chosen career field, I started working for a small NGO. I really believed in what they were doing, so I chose to take significantly less money in order to work for them. When I first started there, they made it seem like my lower salary was a temporary thing until they could get on their feet. However, month after month the director would come to me and say something to the effect of "Yeah, we liked into it and still can't increase your salary. Maybe next month!"

I eventually worked myself into a full-time (paid) position, which I was in for about two years. However, after those two years there was a whole staff change up. They brought in a new director and decided not to renew my contract, even though the entire board agreed I performed above and beyond expectations in my job. Despite the loyalty I had shown to the organization, I was out of a job without anyone able to really give me a reason.

I felt completely betrayed by the organization I had sacrificed so much for.

While Wideman's situation is not perfectly similar, I don't doubt that he probably feels some amount of animosity towards the Flames, especially where this is a contract year. By benching him, they are essentially torpedoing any chance he has for a new contract next year. Is some of it on him? Of course it is, but as TextCritic has pointed out, his body is aging and simply can't do what it used to.

Now, a couple things to keep in mind as well:

1. Wideman started playing hockey in the OHL in 1999. That means for the last 18 years he has done nothing but eat, sleep and breathe hockey. His entire world has been professional hockey since he was 16 years old. He's now on the cusp of the only thing he's ever known being taken away from him.

Human beings crave purpose in life. When we feel that our lives don't matter, it can lead to all kinds of depression. Many people who retire, not just professional athletes, experience this. You suddenly find yourself with way too much time on your hands and nothing that gives your life meaning.


2. About half of all people in the world live on about $4.50 CAD a day. Which means, the vast majority of people in the world would look at the salary you make (even if make the Alberta minimum wage you're making roughly $25k) and say you're filthy rich. Now... when was the last time you had a really hard day at the office, but came home and said "Well, at least I make lots of money!" There comes a point where the money doesn't matter.

Furthermore, Dennis Wideman whether right or wrong probably believes he deserves to make as much as he's made over his career. He's one of the top 1,000 hockey players in the entire world.

Dennis Wideman probably doesn't see himself as some greedy, entitled hockey player that simply refuses to play good hockey and get trashed by fans. He probably sees himself as someone who has spent the last 20 years becoming one of the best defenceman in the world. He has dedicated himself to being the absolutely best in his field. And now, at a staggeringly quick pace, everything he's ever known is being taken away from him and the organization he's given himself to over the last five years isn't showing him any loyalty.

I'm not saying I want Wideman to get playing time, but I think we can all empathize with what he's going through right now. And if he's finding it a little hard to get motivating in practice knowing he's more than likely not getting into another NHL game ever, that's certainly understandable.

My claim that Wideman should be happy because of money is obviously short sighted as there are many other things that make humans happy. That being said the discussion was on being empathetic towards Wideman, and because of the amount of money he has made, the amount of chances he has been given, and how he ruined this teams reputation league wide is enough for me to not be empathetic towards his situation. Like I said earlier, if Wideman is going through some serious personal issues I will empathize with him, but a serious personal issue is not that he's an old guy and has to retire soon. Every player comes to this realization and their character is often tested. So far Wideman seems to not be thinking of the team at all, and I don't like that. (yes these are assumptions based on this claim). All athletes retire, that's not something to feel sorry for them about. Lots of hobbies out there, maybe he should practice MMA.

[Beninho]

None of us would have empathy for Todd Bertuzzi, Wideman ruined a mans career but all of you can feel free to make excuses for Wideman and claim that I'm a terrible person for having zero, nada, zilch of empathy for him. He lost all my respect after he blindsided an official into the boards, its unfourthnage that most of this board has forgiven him and now feels bad for Wideman. Let me tell you something he could care less about all of you.

Go watch the replay of the hit he made on the ref and actually tell me he didn't know what he was doing. Took multiple strides while staring right at him. Disgusting

[gunnner]

Originally Posted by Cole436

I love Iginla, just like probably 99% of all Flames fans. Easily my favourite player ever, the greatest Flame and the best hockey player that ever laced up for this franchise. But in saying that, there's been too much smoke over the years for me to ignore that comment. I think as a hockey player, a member of our community, and a person his legacy is pretty well cemented.

But in terms of the rumblings of dissent in the locker room over the years, whether it was the Iginla faction vs. the Regher faction during the prime years of that team, the impact of his very noticeable inconsistent two way play as he got older, to even the fact that only Cammy and Tanguay showed up to his trade press conference, it makes me think there's probably truth in those stories. Even all these years later that last point still bugs me. If Yzerman or Sakic ever got traded, I can't imagine that press conference wouldn't be full of their teammates. I think that says something of how the players were feeling at that point.


edit.

Unless it was ####ing Eric Francis who said it, then disregard all the above.

This is false. Leadership was never the issue. Some of the other heart and soul players were not fans of how the team was constructed, and felt Iggy maybe had a larger influence on that aspect than a player should. From the horses mouth. Lets move on and stop falsely dragging Iggy through the mud.

[tsquared1967]

Originally Posted by Beninho

None of us would have empathy for Todd Bertuzzi, Wideman ruined a mans career but all of you can feel free to make excuses for Wideman and claim that I'm a terrible person for having zero, nada, zilch of empathy for him. He lost all my respect after he blindsided an official into the boards, its unfourthnage that most of this board has forgiven him and now feels bad for Wideman. Let me tell you something he could care less about all of you.

Go watch the replay of the hit he made on the ref and actually tell me he didn't know what he was doing. Took multiple strides while staring right at him. Disgusting

We all saw the video but only Wideman really knows what was in his head at the time. None of us can tell you it wasn't deliberate and you can't tell us it was deliberate unless you are Dennis Wideman.

He ruined a man's retirement life.

[JD]

There's a subtle but important difference between empathy and sympathy, the latter of which some of you are confusing for the former.

[Alberta_Beef]

Originally Posted by heep223

A professional would use that as motivation to make themselves better, or find a new role as a mentor to younger guys, or at least have a positive impact in some way. Not pout because his feelings are hurt and have to specifically get spoken to about his attitude multiple times.

Personally, it's not hard for me to blame him at all.

Not everyone has that ability when they are staring what amounts to a forced retirement in the face. It's easy to say "be professional" when it doesn't involve you.