Saddledome Event Recap - Brian Burke State of the Union

[smiggy77]

Originally Posted by GullFoss

Ok...but follow the logic to the statement. Here's what I'm seeing.
(1) Flames sign a 30 y/o player for $4.5m x 4 years
(2) Player performs about as well as a $2m player in regular season in first season
(3) Burke saying the premium for the players playoff abilities is well worth the price tag of $4.5m

Now what happens in Brouwer is mediocre in the playoffs? The flames have two choices...

1) Pay a premium to Vegas so they don't select a Brouwer who is seemingly overpaid based on his regular season and playoff performances. Flames are betting a 31 y/o player rebounds markedly in his second year of contract...

2) Expose a player that is seemingly overpaid. If Vegas selects him, the flames ends up with a non-core, post-apex, overpaid player off the books.

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

People who run teams understand that players, and teams, have good years and bad years.

They understand that putting a winner together requires patience.

Unlike fans who look at the last few games and demand trades / firings after every loss.

And to add to Enoch's post, a lot of fans forget the defensive aspects of an NHLer is just as important as the offensive side, otherwise they'd be out of the league. There is more than just stats to the game.

[Beninho]

Originally Posted by _Q_

I remember last season, the organization was singing the praises of Kris Russell right before he was dealt at the deadline. I would not be shocked one bit if Brouwer was traded in the offseason, rather than exposing him at the expansion draft. No use in trash talking an asset that you plan on getting full value for.

Agreed, even tho I'm sure Brouwer is a great guy, Brad will still trade him c if the opportunity arises.

[Flash Walken]

I feel like some posters are misconstrued about the term "organization".

It is not the players who might feel animosity towards wideman, it is the ORGANIZATION; coaches, management, scouts, trainers, president, owners etc.

If Wideman has refused to waive his NMC in previous years, if he came into camp uncommitted or out of shape, if he isn't following the X's and O's or giving younger players a poor role model in bring a professional, those could all be examples of why he organization might be less than thrilled with him.

Getting ripped by the coaching staff more than once a year for lacking professionalism is a pretty efficient way to have your bosses become frustrated that they are forced to pay this guy 6 million bucks this year.

[Galakanokis]

Originally Posted by Canada 02

‘How did you get the team to play that hard?’ ” said Gulutzan, now 45. “I remember that was one of the questions I asked him after their playoff run. I hadn’t seen a team play that hard. And Darryl’s answer, I still remember, was: ‘I didn’t. I didn’t do it.’ He said, ‘Once Jarome and the leadership got on board and together, they looked after it themselves.’

I think this is a key statement. Iggy from 04 to 08 was not the same leader as his last couple of years. Yes, it is all speculation but there are reports of young or new players being left out of activities. Even Conroy had to step in once Iginla left and say that is not how we do things here. I get a sense that Iginla wasn't buying after Darryl especially with certain coaches and that is where the disconnect comes from.

I firmly believe players would have taken a bullet for each other in and around 04, and that was Iginla's doing. I do not get the same sense from his last couple of Flames teams and I again believe it was Iginla's doing. Was it on purpose? I highly doubt it, just the way things evolved. I think we talk about two different players during Iginla's time here.

[Beninho]

Originally Posted by _Q_

I remember last season, the organization was singing the praises of Kris Russell right before he was dealt at the deadline. I would not be shocked one bit if Brouwer was traded in the offseason, rather than exposing him at the expansion draft. No use in trash talking an asset that you plan on getting full value for.

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

I feel bad for Wideman.

I wanted him out of the lineup, and I am thrilled that we got Stone, but he is in a tough situation now - which is fine, in and of itself, but the way people are piling on him now - most hated player in the organization? #### off - is unnecessary and over the top.

If you actually feel bad for Wideman you need to give your head a shake. Wideman deserves pitty from no one.

[Gaskal]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

I feel like some posters are misconstrued about the term "organization".

It is not the players who might feel animosity towards wideman, it is the ORGANIZATION; coaches, management, scouts, trainers, president, owners etc.

If Wideman has refused to waive his NMC in previous years, if he came into camp uncommitted or out of shape, if he isn't following the X's and O's or giving younger players a poor role model in bring a professional, those could all be examples of why he organization might be less than thrilled with him.

Getting ripped by the coaching staff more than once a year for lacking professionalism is a pretty efficient way to have your bosses become frustrated that they are forced to pay this guy 6 million bucks this year.

That's all true regarding the organization outside the players, but assuming that the reporter was correct in the mention of Gulutzan having to pull Wideman aside to remind him of being a "good professional & good teammate", I'm also very inclined to think that he's less than popular in the locker room at this point as well.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Gaskal

That's all true regarding the organization outside the players, but assuming that the reporter was correct in the mention of Gulutzan having to pull Wideman aside to remind him of being a "good professional & good teammate", I'm also very inclined to think that he's less than popular in the locker room at this point as well.

I also agree he is probably less than popular.

What is being a 'bad teammate' for a coach is often different for a player.

Playing video games all night and eating cheetos is probably being a good teammate to a fellow teammate, but to a coach it's not.

To be clear, I have no evidence that Dennis Wideman is either a night owl or a cheetos fan.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

That playoff physicality is so hard to measure. I mean, they keep track of hits, but often an interpretation of a hit varies from arena to arena. Also, a Ferland hit is not the same thing as a David Jones hit, yet statistically there is no difference.

You can see that one hit is more violent or heavier, but it is such a difficult thing to accurately capture statistically.

See, here's the thing... a hit is not inherently valuable. Games aren't won or lost based on hit differential they're won based on goal differential. Guy throws a hit but the guy he hit keeps the puck or passed it to a teammate then how much value was there really?

Two former flames both noted for their physicality, Phaneaf & Regher. I would argue that Regher's physicality was significantly more valuable then Phaneaf's because Regher's was more substantive. Phaneaf would engage a guy one on one, over-commit to the hit, put himself out of position to do so leading to defensive breakdowns. Regher picked his spots much better. They both used their bodies but Phaneaf treated the hit as an end onto itself (He hit to make a hit) while Regher used it as a means onto an end (he hit to substantively remove the puck from the opposing teams possession).

Regardless... Troy Brouwer is not some great playoff performer. In 7 trips to the post-season he's had one good performance in terms of production, one ok performance, and five that I would describe as between "Blah" and "Meh". His reputation for post-season play looks like it by far exceeds his performance.

Originally Posted by GioforPM

If Wideman is the most hated guy in the organization, why is are the veteran leaders (especially Gio and Stajan) going out with him?

I would more suspect that "the organization" in this case doesn't include the players. Or it was just speculation.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by dieHARDflameZ

One other thing Burke said which I forgot to mention in the OP was that he felt there is not a single cup champion since the Ducks won it in 2007 that would beat that team in a series, in fact he thinks that Ducks team would kick the **** out of a number of them. He just said that team was a tough, mean team to play against. Followed it up by saying he wishes there was a way to measure that kind of stuff.

Who knew Andy McDonald was so important? He was traded midseason the next year (for Doug Weight). They also lost Penner to the offer sheet.

2008 added: Bobby Ryan, Todd Bertuzzi, and Hiller took over as backup from Bryz.

No reason the '08 ducks couldn't have been as good as the previous year, yet they didn't make it out of the first round...

[cznTiburon]

Originally Posted by Parallex

See, here's the thing... a hit is not inherently valuable. Games aren't won or lost based on hit differential they're won based on goal differential. Guy throws a hit but the guy he hit keeps the puck or passed it to a teammate then how much value was there really

I respectfully disagree about a hit being valuable. There are different levels of value to a hit depending on circumstances. While you are right about a fair number being after a puck has been passed we see that hits do matter. Look at ferlands goal against the kings recently, ferland hits muzzin who turns over the puck because of the hit and results in ferland alone in front to score. That goal does not happen without that single hit. You can look back to the playoff series against the Canucks too. It isn't one hit but all the hits that won the series. Th defence started turning the pucks over like crazy when they knew that ferland/jones/stajan were all bearing down hard. It also seemingly increased the team compete when ferland was crushing guys. Just a couple examples of intangible measures of hits having a significant impact in the results of a game

[EVERLAST]

Glad this team was able to feel it in and be Ina position to win 8 straight together.

Like hearing about Burke and his continued love for his beloved ducks. I hope this kind of material inspires the flames to use as a motivational tool.

Yeah, that team was skilled, heavy and fast but I've watched every cup final rather past 30 years and there have been some other teams that would have run over that ducks team.

When you can roll all 4 lines on a team successfully everyone is doing something right from the top down or net out.

Glad we are in this position now with Glen sticking to his guns on systems and BT pulling in help via trades that agree with Ascension.

Maybe the results aren't the same in Stockton but I think we have some up and coming talent developing and ready for the future.

It's not progressing as quickly as some might like but patience is paying off for some players now who even 2 years ago were write offs .....Backlund being one of those players. It's awesome.

My gut tells me we're in for a good run in the playoffs as long as we can finish out the season healthy and just worry about us the Calgary Flames. Sometimes looking peripherally isn't good and we've been working on just us and look at the results an talk about today.

Congrats Flames......proud fan here.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Beninho

If you actually feel bad for Wideman you need to give your head a shake. Wideman deserves pitty from no one.

Quite frankly, you have no idea what Wideman "deserves" or does not deserve. He is a human being who is clearly suffering through a professional rough patch, and is facing the inevitable end of a career that he loves. As fellow human beings we should all be capable of empathizing with how that must feel.

Wideman's days as a NHLer are done, and I wish him nothing but prosperity and well being in the future.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by cznTiburon

I respectfully disagree about a hit being valuable.

I didn't say they weren't valuable... just that they're not inherently valuable.

Originally Posted by cznTiburon

Look at ferlands goal against the kings recently, ferland hits muzzin who turns over the puck because of the hit and results in ferland alone in front to score.

...

You can look back to the playoff series against the Canucks too. It isn't one hit but all the hits that won the series. The defence started turning the pucks over like crazy when they knew that ferland/jones/stajan were all bearing down hard.

Exactly... you're proving my point. The hit wasn't what was valuable it was the turning over of the puck that resulted from the hit. If the other team retained possession of the puck then the hits had no practical benefit.

Originally Posted by cznTiburon

Just a couple examples of intangible measures of hits having a significant impact in the results of a game

I think it's entirely possible to measure Useful Physicality. It would basically involve taking Shot Suppression Metrics (since hitting is entirely a defensive tactic) + Penalty Differential (physicality that put you down a man... not useful, physicality that draws a retaliation penalty... very useful)+ Post-contact turnover rates (direct and secondary). Determine a common value scale and the proper weighting for each.

[Enoch Root]

The whole debate about the value of a hit misses the mark IMO.

There is far more to being a tough team than hits. And it isn't just fights or scrums either.

Being physical, being tough to play against, being truculent if you wish, means all kinds of things: being more determined in puck battles; not getting knocked off the puck easily; being more physically engaged in trying to get the puck back or in playing defense; being intimidating; not being intimidated by others; fighting through checks; being resilient when down (mental toughness).

It goes on and on. I hate it when people quote hits as some sort of metric as to whether a player is 'tough'.

Brendan Gallagher is a player that I would call tough, or tough to play against. And at no point am I looking for him to throw a thunderous hit (though thunderous hits **Ferlandcough** definitely do contribute to someone being tough or physical)

[mikeecho]

I've been to a number of Flames practices this year, most recently this past Saturday at Winsport and find the Wideman comments interesting. He's usually one the players that appears to be having the most fun on the ice. On Saturday, you could see his smile from the other end of the rink. i actually thought it was odd that he seemed so energized and having so much fun considering his current circumstance.

Also, take the comments of most media with a grain of salt. Wills was on the radio talking about how tough the Saturday practice was and that Gulutzan really gave it to the team in an effort to keep them sharp in the midst of a winning streak. I've been at Bantam practices where the coaches have run tougher practices.

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Quite frankly, you have no idea what Wideman "deserves" or does not deserve. He is a human being who is clearly suffering through a professional rough patch, and is facing the inevitable end of a career that he loves. As fellow human beings we should all be capable of empathizing with how that must feel.

Wideman's days as a NHLer are done, and I wish him nothing but prosperity and well being in the future.

It's certainly not an excuse for being a poor teammate (allegedly), but I can understand where Wideman might be frustrated, and I has negatively effected him.

His contract is up, and he's having a poor year. He's at an age where he probably doesn't get a contract offer next year. He sees that his time is winding down.

Time is winding down, and he isn't able to contribute. He's not going out on his own terms (not that most get to), and the frustration from that.

Steep decline - had there been a Norris Trophy for just the last quarter of the season two years ago, Wideman probably wins that. Two years later he's being healthy scratched multiple games in a row with no evidence that he's going to get back in.

The incident - setting aside the result and consequences, knowing the rest of his career, its very likely that Wideman had no intention of hurting the official. Wideman is likely not going to be remembered for much else in his career other than that one play. I think that would put a burden on someone.

The burden of being the pawn in what ended up being a battle between the NHL and the PA. The whole incident became a battle that was bigger than just what happened with him.

Again, these aren't excuses for him, but I don't know if I could say I wouldn't have checked out already if I were him.

[flamestar16]

No matter how you feel about Wideman. The reality is that there is a strong possibility that he will be needed if the Flames have any type of playoff run. Injuries and suspensions will happen. The Flames are about to play a bunch of high playoff type games in a tight time frame. As bad as it has been with Dennis I think he is a pretty good depth guy to have available. I remember him playing huge minutes in 2015 down the stretch and into the playoffs. Its one thing to have him in your top four but maybe he is value is higher as a 7th d man.

[dino7c]

IF he is being a big baby and detrimental to the team he can pack his #### and GTFO

he can pout all he wants but its obvious that no other NHL team wants him and the Flames are 7-0 since sitting him so why the fack would they put him back in the lineup


Maybe he believed all the lies that multiple teams were interested

[mdubz]

Originally Posted by dino7c

IF he is being a big baby and detrimental to the team he can pack his #### and GTFO

he can pout all he wants but its obvious that no other NHL team wants him and the Flames are 7-0 since sitting him so why the fack would they put him back in the lineup


Maybe he believed all the lies that multiple teams were interested

They can't tell him to GTFO, he has a NMC. He's stuck with the team all season/playoffs no matter what.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by flamestar16

No matter how you feel about Wideman. The reality is that there is a strong possibility that he will be needed if the Flames have any type of playoff run. Injuries and suspensions will happen. The Flames are about to play a bunch of high playoff type games in a tight time frame. As bad as it has been with Dennis I think he is a pretty good depth guy to have available. I remember him playing huge minutes in 2015 down the stretch and into the playoffs. Its one thing to have him in your top four but maybe he is value is higher as a 7th d man.

Having a guy with experience and who, believe it or not, is still capable of putting in a good game is a better option than a rookie. If he's called upon maybe Wideman can have a Stajan 2015 moment.