[Trade] Sens trade Lazar and Kostka to the Flames for a 2nd + Jokipakka

[GioforPM]

Patrick Eaves is a 32 year old pending UFA with one 20 goal season before this one. Treliving didn't want a rental. And Eaves returned slightly more than a second round pick. It is a conditional pick that could become a late first. Anaheim gave up that pick with no guarantee of a long term player.

I think the Lazar deal is better. The real question is - if Calgary had a chance with their second round pick (around number 50) to get a player guaranteed to be Lazar, would you pick him? I would.

[Major Major]

Originally Posted by Oil Stain

Everyone knows that when you use a second pick the chances of that second round pick turning into something useful is a long shot.

Everyone should also know that if you trade that second round pick for a player you can usually get a player that is way more useful than what that second round pick would have become.

Trading a second round pick for a 4th liner is NOT a good use of a second rounder because every fool knows you can get more than that in a trade.

For example you can get a Patrick Eaves level player by trading a second rounder and this is the sort of return level a GM should be looking for when he trades a second rounder.

Obviously when Treveling trades a second round pick for Lazar, he is betting that Curtis will develop into something in that mold. If that happens Brad wins the trade.

If Lazar fails to develop into that level of player then Brad loses the Trade because he could have traded his second rounder for that level of player in the first place.

Comparing the return of a second rounder in trade to the odds of a second rounder panning out from the draft is dumb because we know that second rounders routinely fetch more value in trade than what they would produce in the draft.

I'm a little shocked that this needs so much explanation.

Patrick Eaves vanishes in a matter of months. These are not comparable. Your explanation is simple, but not in an "easy to understand" way.

[Karl]

Not as mad about this move as I was before now that a bit of time has passed but still don't like it.

The only move I would've been fine with would be removing Wideman from the team. Given that was unrealistic, I wanted them to stand pat. Do not like the fact they gave up a 2nd rounder for Lazar because I don't think Lazar is good enough to be worth that.

That said, it makes sense they are sitting him out for tomorrow's game against the Wings. And frankly, barring injuries, I hope they sit him out for the balance of the rest of this season too. I don't want to mess with team dynamics too much and I don't think Lazar would improve this team for the remaining 18 games left in the year.

Like I said, unless injuries occur, I don't want Lazar replacing anybody. This team has done too well to deserve to be altered anymore. The current players have earned the opportunity enough to play this out (yes even Bouma, Chiasson & Brouwer).

Lazar can get his playing time in earnest starting next year.

[dammage79]

Nm

[dammage79]

Originally Posted by Karl

Not as mad about this move as I was before now that a bit of time has passed but still don't like it.

The only move I would've been fine with would be removing Wideman from the team. Given that was unrealistic, I wanted them to stand pat. Do not like the fact they gave up a 2nd rounder for Lazar because I don't think Lazar is good enough to be worth that.

That said, it makes sense they are sitting him out for tomorrow's game against the Wings. And frankly, barring injuries, I hope they sit him out for the balance of the rest of this season too. I don't want to mess with team dynamics too much and I don't think Lazar would improve this team for the remaining 18 games left in the year.

Like I said, unless injuries occur, I don't want Lazar replacing anybody. This team has done too well to deserve to be altered anymore. The current players have earned the opportunity enough to play this out (yes even Bouma, Chiasson & Brouwer).

Lazar can get his playing time in earnest starting next year.

Lazar will play at some point this season. Maybe after a few games and catching up on systems. Elevation adaptation takes about a week.

[memphusk]

Originally Posted by Karl

Not as mad about this move as I was before now that a bit of time has passed but still don't like it.

The only move I would've been fine with would be removing Wideman from the team. Given that was unrealistic, I wanted them to stand pat. Do not like the fact they gave up a 2nd rounder for Lazar because I don't think Lazar is good enough to be worth that.

That said, it makes sense they are sitting him out for tomorrow's game against the Wings. And frankly, barring injuries, I hope they sit him out for the balance of the rest of this season too. I don't want to mess with team dynamics too much and I don't think Lazar would improve this team for the remaining 18 games left in the year.

Like I said, unless injuries occur, I don't want Lazar replacing anybody. This team has done too well to deserve to be altered anymore. The current players have earned the opportunity enough to play this out (yes even Bouma, Chiasson & Brouwer).

Lazar can get his playing time in earnest starting next year.

Why so Hot Karl?

[memphusk]

Originally Posted by dammage79

Lazar will play at some point this season. Maybe after a few games and catching up on systems. Elevation adaptation takes about a week.

And play with some excitement. I want to see what he can do in a new sweater.

[Karl]

Originally Posted by memphusk

Why so Hot Karl?

[killer_carlson]

Argh...damnit Gulatzon. Quit making hard decisions I agree with. It makes it harder to cheer for you to be replaced.

First, the benching of Gaudreau who fully earned his stint on the 4th line. Sends the message, Gaudreau accepts the challenge

Then the public clarification surrounding the drama of Gaudreau missing the bus. Puts an end to the drive by from an Edmonton media personality who has a column on a high traffic site. Clarifies that Gaudreau was with a trainer, made it to practice early, and wasn't the slightest concerned as a coach. Could have gone a different way or left to simmer, but the coach makes the right move.

Now he puts Lazar in a spot where he has to earn his ice. All sorts of excitement from management on the acquisition of Lazar, but the coach both protects the player as well as sends him a message that it won't be handed to him. It also puts pressure on Chaisson, Bouma, Versteeg, Hamilton and Ferland to pick up their games (or maintain for Ferland) or else lose your spot. Great decision by the coach. Sets Lazar and the team up for success rather than expose them to greater risk of percieved failure.

Really impressed by these coaching decisions. Have to admit it.

[sureLoss]

looking back at some of the 2013 draft related material

Craig Button's breakdown (scale of 1-5):
Ice Q: 4.5
Skating: 4
Playmaking: 4.5
Competitivness: 4
Shot: 5
Physicality: 4

Back in 2013, Button thought the strength in Lazar's game was goal scoring but is a very good playmaker too.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by sureLoss

looking back at some of the 2013 draft related material

Craig Button's breakdown (scale of 1-5):
Ice Q: 4.5
Skating: 4
Playmaking: 4.5
Competitivness: 4
Shot: 5
Physicality: 4

Back in 2013, Button thought the strength in Lazar's game was goal scoring but is a very good playmaker too.

That is really interesting to revisit because now, people are saying his strengths are skating, competitiveness, and physicality, and his weakness is ice IQ and offense.

So either he has done a complete 180 on the type of hockey player that he is (unlikely), or he is lacking confidence and a change of scenery could do him wonders.

[howard_the_duck]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

That is really interesting to revisit because now, people are saying his strengths are skating, competitiveness, and physicality, and his weakness is ice IQ and offense.

So either he has done a complete 180 on the type of hockey player that he is (unlikely), or he is lacking confidence and a change of scenery could do him wonders.

What stood out to me watching that WJC highlight reel is his ability to get to the quiet areas of the ice in the offensive zone. That's an instinctive goal scorers skill that cannot be taught.

So we know he's a good skater with a good shot, and although his production at this level hasn't been good, he's a player who's demonstrated solid offensive instincts.

That's a gamble worth taking.

[calgaryblood]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Patrick Eaves is a 32 year old pending UFA with one 20 goal season before this one. Treliving didn't want a rental. And Eaves returned slightly more than a second round pick. It is a conditional pick that could become a late first. Anaheim gave up that pick with no guarantee of a long term player.

I think the Lazar deal is better. The real question is - if Calgary had a chance with their second round pick (around number 50) to get a player guaranteed to be Lazar, would you pick him? I would.

So you'd pick a player guaranteed to be a Lazar? On the cusp of a bust with 1 assist in his last 33 games?

You might, and the Flames did, but 29 other teams passed.

[Dan403]

Originally Posted by calgaryblood

You might, and the Flames did, but 29 other teams passed.

Lol. You can say that about ANY trade and most draft pics.

Completely meaningless.

[howard_the_duck]

Originally Posted by calgaryblood

So you'd pick a player guaranteed to be a Lazar? On the cusp of a bust with 1 assist in his last 33 games?

You might, and the Flames did, but 29 other teams passed.

I'd hardly say 29 teams passed. Did 29 teams 'pass' on Dougie Hamilton? Treliving stepped up and paid the price for what he thinks will be a worthwhile investment for the Flames.

On the cusp of being a bust, at 22?

[Gaudfather]

According to Elliott Friedman on 960 this morning, it sounds like Flames management were noodling around acquiring both Bishop and Lazar as they were approaching trade deadline - but they weren't sure they had the draft picks to secure both, and Lazar was the greater priority. The fact that Brian Elliott had upped his game recently was likely also a factor. But it shows that Lazar was an organizational priority coming into trade deadline.

[Vinny01]

Listening to his interview yesterday it seems this kid has already regained a lot of his confidence. He talks like he just got out of jail and is a free man again. He seems genuinely motivated and determined that he will find success here in Calgary.

I understand why people are skeptical and concerned the Flames trades assets for a bust. I personally am put at eaae when I listen to what Lazar has been saying and more importantly how management has talked about him.

The way the team is going I am not surprised hensits tonight. He needs practice time and it is hard to make a lineup change when a team has won 5 straight. I could see Lazar debuting in one of the next 3 games after tonight. Sunday afternoon after he has had a few more skates and watched the team play a game? Thursday against the Habs after having several practices, and watched a couple games? Or next Saturday in Winnipeg where he can get his first game in on the road and has had a week and a half to get used to the team
And system

[jaikorven]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

Listening to his interview yesterday it seems this kid has already regained a lot of his confidence. He talks like he just got out of jail and is a free man again. He seems genuinely motivated and determined that he will find success here in Calgary.

I understand why people are skeptical and concerned the Flames trades assets for a bust. I personally am put at eaae when I listen to what Lazar has been saying and more importantly how management has talked about him.

The way the team is going I am not surprised hensits tonight. He needs practice time and it is hard to make a lineup change when a team has won 5 straight. I could see Lazar debuting in one of the next 3 games after tonight. Sunday afternoon after he has had a few more skates and watched the team play a game? Thursday against the Habs after having several practices, and watched a couple games? Or next Saturday in Winnipeg where he can get his first game in on the road and has had a week and a half to get used to the team
And system

I think Winnipeg as they are the worse team and play a more physical style. He could be more useful in that one imo.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by calgaryblood

So you'd pick a player guaranteed to be a Lazar? On the cusp of a bust with 1 assist in his last 33 games?

You might, and the Flames did, but 29 other teams passed.

Would I take a guy in the second round who be guaranteed to have two NHL seasons in a fairly early time frame? Yup. That's what I hope for out of a second rounder - an NHL regular.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by calgaryblood

So you'd pick a player guaranteed to be a Lazar? On the cusp of a bust with 1 assist in his last 33 games?

You might, and the Flames did, but 29 other teams passed.

How do you know how many teams passed, BTW? Every team has different needs, some who would have not passed maybe had a worse second round pick, or they liked Kevin more than the other teams' offers. Maybe there was even a bidding war between teams.

You have no idea, or at least you haven't provided any reason to think that Lazar was offered to 30 teams and only Calgary was interested.