[Trade] Sens trade Lazar and Kostka to the Flames for a 2nd + Jokipakka

[Bingo]

If I'm the Flames I point to Frolik both in terms of career path and a guy to emulate. If he's Frolik II the Flames win this deal in a landslide.

Both drafted as offensive players
Both have decent wheels
Both will go to the tough areas of the ice

Lazar has already shown he can play in his own zone and likes to kill penalty minutes

the example is right there for him every day

[Nsd1]

Originally Posted by sureLoss

Kristen Odland @Kristen_Odland
From Gulutzan's scrum, the impression I took away was that they don't want to rush Lazar into the lineup. Wasn't playing big minutes in Ott.

Bust!!!1!

[sun]

Originally Posted by 868904

I'm surprised by some of the hate that this deal is getting. People need to understand that a team isn't comprised entirely of scorers and skill guys. You need elite role players too. Elite forecheckers, elite penalty killers, elite defensive defensemen. Lazar won't ever be a scorer, but if he reaches his ceiling, he will be a very significant contributor to a championship type team.

Poll: Do you like the Lazar trade to Calgary?
Hate it - 5/806 voters = 0.62%

[868904]

Originally Posted by sun

Poll: Do you like the Lazar trade to Calgary?
Hate it - 5/806 voters = 0.62%

Vocal minority I guess. Seemed like a lot more based on the posts.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by Bingo

If I'm the Flames I point to Frolik both in terms of career path and a guy to emulate. If he's Frolik II the Flames win this deal in a landslide.

Both drafted as offensive players
Both have decent wheels
Both will go to the tough areas of the ice

Lazar has already shown he can play in his own zone and likes to kill penalty minutes

the example is right there for him every day

I would agree that Frolik wouldn't be a terrible guy to emulate. Lazar is a bit nastier and much more physical though. I have to look back and think of what player best fits him, and I can't think of a shorter Joel Otto as a better guy to emulate. I can't really think of who else might fit with what I think Lazar could possibly grow into.

I really hope that as he ramps up, that he is eventually tried on a line with Bennett. I think those two really compliment each other really well in how they play - they both are fairly aggressive and physical, and they both play with a lot of pace.

Ferland being difficult to handle on the top line, Tkachuk doing his thing on his line, and Bennett and Lazar continuing with more. I hate to say it, but this team really is becoming much more truculent without losing speed and skill.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

I would agree that Frolik wouldn't be a terrible guy to emulate. Lazar is a bit nastier and much more physical though. I have to look back and think of what player best fits him, and I can't think of a shorter Joel Otto as a better guy to emulate. I can't really think of who else might fit with what I think Lazar could possibly grow into.

I really hope that as he ramps up, that he is eventually tried on a line with Bennett. I think those two really compliment each other really well in how they play - they both are fairly aggressive and physical, and they both play with a lot of pace.

Ferland being difficult to handle on the top line, Tkachuk doing his thing on his line, and Bennett and Lazar continuing with more. I hate to say it, but this team really is becoming much more truculent without losing speed and skill.

Yelle 2.0?

[t0rrent98]

Not sure if it's been said, but Lazar will not be in the lineup tomorrow. Flames have won 5 straight so why fix it when it ain't broken.

[Robbob]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

Yelle 2.0?

or Conroy 2.0

[GoJetsGo]

It's kind of astounding how a small minority can brew up such a large and unrelenting concern at times.

The part that gets me with regard to worrying about the 2nd round pick is that it isn't relative to an overall philosophy. This move is specific to *this* 2nd round pick.

We have accumulated 2nd rounds picks in previous years, and used them to pick up assets superior to their worth.

In this isolated instance, the club is taking a calculated risk (sending this lower value 2nd rounder because of the weak draft) on a player they clearly like that they've done a ton of due diligence on.

IF there was an unbelievable deal that materializes at this draft, I can't fathom how some people are trying to spin that the loss of this mid to high 2nd rounder in a poor draft could be crippling. It's clear the pick in and of itself isn't going to land anything of consequence... and it would be very easy to insert something of comparable value if an add-on is needed in a larger deal.

[FFFLife]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

I hate to say it, but this team really is becoming much more truculent without losing speed and skill.

I personally LOVE to say that... Why would you hate to say it unless you are a fan of another team...


Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk

[868904]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

I would agree that Frolik wouldn't be a terrible guy to emulate. Lazar is a bit nastier and much more physical though. I have to look back and think of what player best fits him, and I can't think of a shorter Joel Otto as a better guy to emulate. I can't really think of who else might fit with what I think Lazar could possibly grow into.

I really hope that as he ramps up, that he is eventually tried on a line with Bennett. I think those two really compliment each other really well in how they play - they both are fairly aggressive and physical, and they both play with a lot of pace.

Ferland being difficult to handle on the top line, Tkachuk doing his thing on his line, and Bennett and Lazar continuing with more. I hate to say it, but this team really is becoming much more truculent without losing speed and skill.

Dustin Brown is my hope for Lazar. The 50 point version.

[Manhattanboy]

Not sure if this has been posted. Lazar acquisition was one of Pierre LeBrun's favourite under the radar trade day moves:

"I think Calgary made a brilliant trade there. And I'm not criticizing the Senators. (Sometimes) you get to a point with a player where you're like, "He is not going to figure it out here with us," and I think Ottawa felt that way about Lazar. I think there's some great value there long term. He may not have an impact this year, but moving forward, there might be an opportunity."

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by GoJetsGo

It's kind of astounding how a small minority can brew up such a large and unrelenting concern at times.

Not for you personally, but just in general since a lot of people are complaining about it...

The ratio of posts illustrating differing opinions on a message board should never be looked at as the ratio of opinions itself. It doesn't work that way.

If someone has a minority opinion and 20 people question it, obviously that person will feel the need to answer more than one of those posts. And why shouldn't they?

The real question, is why do people feel the need to pile on? If you are posting to question that minority opinion after 20 people said or asked the same thing and the person has already responded, maybe you don't need to throw your hat in there as well? All it does is illicit the same response (hence, creating a "vocal minority").

[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by Beninho

Let him gain confidence back in practice and go from there. Boucher seemed like the worst coach for him, he needs a player coach like Gully who won't tear him a new one for everything he does wrong. Boucher is like Hartley, and that style of coaching is not good for some players especially younger guys. It seemed when watching Lazar that he was so worried at making a mistake and getting chewed out by Boucher that he lost his game that got him to the NHL. That's just my opinion tho, he might just not be that good but obviously the Flames feel like they can develop him better, and after seeing how they've developed Ferland I don't see why they can't do the same with Lazar if he actually had the talent scouts thought he had prior to the draft. It's all up to him, really can't be any excuses from him here.

I was thinking the same thing. Certain goaltenders seemed to struggle under Hartley for the same reason your suggesting, but Gully seems to use a different approach.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Oil Stain

I would think he has to come close to a 20 goal scorer for this to be a win down the road for Calgary.

You don't give up a second rounder for forechecking and decent without the puck. That's Lance Bouma.

Lazar will need to be an above average third liner for this to be a win IMO, because you can get an average third liner for free from free agency.

Can he be that player? Maybe.

The lack of self awareness is astounding

In the last 14 years, the Oilers have drafted 13 players in the 2nd round.

ONE of them (Jeff Petry) has scored 20 goals IN HIS CAREER.

Acquiring ANY useful player - even a good 4th rounder, who Lazar projects to be better than - is a good return for a 2nd rounder.

This idea that you're going to get Saad or Weber from every 2nd round pick is ridiculous. Each team gets a top 6 / top 4 player from the 2nd round once every 10 years or so.

ANY useful NHL player is a good use of a 2nd round pick.

[Henry Fool]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

[...]

ANY useful NHL player is a good use of a 2nd round pick.

So why ever keep it? Just trade it away every time.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Henry Fool

So why ever keep it? Just trade it away every time.

Yes, because extreme views always make for a solid argument

[Henry Fool]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Yes, because extreme views always make for a solid argument

My extreme views or yours?

The reason teams actually keep their picks despite the odds is that they trust their scouting department to find players like Brodie and Gaudreau once in a while. It's not as simple as saying that "ANY useful NHL player is a good use of a 2nd round pick."

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Henry Fool

So why ever keep it? Just trade it away every time.

Yeah, exactly.

The Flames obviously believe that Lazar has top 9 potential. If they thought he was only going to be bench filler or a tweener, no way do they give up a 2nd for him. Because a player is just good enough to get 4th line ice-time isn't generally worth a 2nd round pick even if most never get that far.

I think right now, this trade has about an even chance of working out great, bombing or just being OK. Basically, both sides have valid concerns about the assets involved.

I think for this trade to be a win though, Lazar has to be a top 9 forward. Either a top 6, or above-average 3rd liner. Not next season, but within the next 3 seasons.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

The lack of self awareness is astounding

In the last 14 years, the Oilers have drafted 13 players in the 2nd round.

ONE of them (Jeff Petry) has scored 20 goals IN HIS CAREER.

Acquiring ANY useful player - even a good 4th rounder, who Lazar projects to be better than - is a good return for a 2nd rounder.

This idea that you're going to get Saad or Weber from every 2nd round pick is ridiculous. Each team gets a top 6 / top 4 player from the 2nd round once every 10 years or so.

ANY useful NHL player is a good use of a 2nd round pick.

Applies to more than the Oilers, who are a bad example. F'rinstance:

2013 - top second rounder in points is Nick Petan with 18 (3 goals). No 20 goal scorers. None in 2012 either.

From 2011 only Rask, Saad, Jenner and Kucherov have had 20 goal seasons. And Kucherov did so 6 years after his draft. Rask did so 5 years later. Jenner got a30 in a big year but might not get 20 ever again.