Love this trade. Lazar is a kid I hoped the Flames would have drafted if he was still around by the Poirrier pick.
For whatever reason he hasn't worked out in OTT but I see him as a Tkachuk type player for the Flames. Maybe a bit of a project but worth dumping Jokipakka. The 2nd is steep but I think that all has to do with the Sens picking him 17th overall and his age. Just think same age as Monahan.
Gaudreau, Monahan, Tkachuk, Bennett all under 25 and contributing every game.
Jankowski, Klimchuk, Shinkaruk, & Poirier also young and any of them could make the team next year with a solid training camp.
Not a single one is a RH shot. I'm glad we can add him to the talented crop of forwards who are developing in the NHL & on the farm.
I see him as a RH Klimchuk; someone who will play in the middle 6 of a good team, be responsible all over the ice and pot the odd goal with an above-average shot.
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Both Lazar and Dougie Hamilton are listed as #27 on the Flames official website.
Well Lazar better get used to some obligatory Second Stars on Sportsnet then... if they can't tell Hamilton from Hamilton I don't know how they'll deal with 2 27s.
I also can't help but visualize Benning and there are 2 number 27s??
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Is Lazar now not part of our system that could help us compete in the next 5 years? Again, comes back to the point, fair if you'd prefer the player that the 2nd round pick would become to be part of the system, but let's not pretend this player at this age is a mostly developed asset at this point, and isn't now part of the internal system or funnel we'll have to draw from. Just because we haven't owned him from draft day, doesn't make him any less viable or valuable.
Interesting point in regards to draft pick as currency. I think that's a fair statement. What I don't think is likely is that the Flames were going to be able to leverage this years 2nd round pick, in a weak draft, to pull the trigger on something to fill one of this teams significant holes before that draft pick became an actual player in this years draft.
Thanks for the civil response.
No, he's not part of the system unless he spends the rest of the year or a good portion of it in the minors. He's got 170 games of nhl experience, he's not a prospect anymore, he's an NHL player. So while he may be a contributing roster player, he's not part of the prospect pool of the team, which isn't deep enough, which is why the Flames traded for Lazar. I think part of the assumption here has to be that the Flames at this point don't plan on graduating anyone from the minors onto the main roster at the centre position. The Flames now Monahan, Bennett, Backlund, Stajan and Lazar in the lineup as centres, with a throwaway like Hamilton capable of playing that position, and under contract, as well. I hope the acquisition of Lazar means the Flames will be moving on from Stajan in short order, but I'm not convinced that is possible.
As for the second paragraph, it's not that I think the Flames were in the position to draft an exceptional player or make an exceptional trade, BUT, not having that 2nd round asset prevents you from being involved in that exceptional trade unless you want to move something even more valuable than a second. If the Flames did not have that 2nd round draft pick heading into the draft they may not have been able to capitalize on the hamilton deal.
If the Flames are looking at Duchene or Landeskog in the offseason and someone offers a 1st and two 3rds, I want the Flames to be able to beat that with a 1st and a 2nd offer because they have multiple second rounders instead of none.
I am stoked on the potential for Lazar to be a bottom 6 centre for the Flames making less than 1.5 million, but the Flames definitely lost some flexibility today and the situation does not look great heading into the draft, regardless of how weak, to augment the prospect system that is badly in need of another blue chipper.
Picking at the draft gives them the benefit of consensus rankings. If they went way off the board in the 2nd round I'd probably think it was dumb too.
Jesus, I don't like a trade so I'm needlessly negative? I loved the Stone trade. Still do. Not everyone is going to convince themselves that every move the Flames make is a good one.
But I thought our scouts were incapable of drafting anything useful outside the top 10? Are the consensus rankings to blame? Does that mean we should be drafting off the board... but you just said that would be dumb... I'm confused.
Flames definitely lost some flexibility today and the situation does not look great heading into the draft, regardless of how weak, to augment the prospect system that is badly in need of another blue chipper.
Why do we always need a blue chip prospect? If anything, we've had our top guys become mainstays and the core of our team already (Monahan, Tkachuk and to a degree Bennett) with a pleasant surprise here (Gaudreau, hopefully Ferland).
What the Flames need is for the prospects in our system now and in the future start to compete for and take full time NHL jobs. Jankowski, Andersson and Kylington are a couple that come to mind as ideal candidates but hopefully the likes of one of Klimchuk/Poirier improving their situation.
We don't NEED more stars on this team. We need to develop more NHL players.
Personally, I don't think the Flames won this trade. But if we were to take a step back and look at the week as a whole. We spent a 2nd and a 3rd for Michael Stone, Curtis Lazar and Matt Bartkowski. That's not too bad especially when you consider that Brendan Smith cost New York the exact same picks.
Personally, I don't think the Flames won this trade. But if we were to take a step back and look at the week as a whole. We spent a 2nd and a 3rd for Michael Stone, Curtis Lazar and Matt Bartkowski. That's not too bad especially when you consider that Brendan Smith cost New York the exact same picks.
Jokipakka and a 2nd and 3rd
Still a good deal IMO.
If Stone keeps doing what he's doing and ends up being the long term answer for our top 4 D group, then I'd pay that just for him alone.
The 2015 draft had GM and scouts saying that the 1st and 2nd rounds were really good and then it drops after that when you get mid-way through the 3rd round. They said that the 2016 draft was better then the 2015 draft. This year I am hearing that it isn't as good after the first 10 guys are gone.
The reason the Flames got Dougie Hamilton, they were giving up 3 picks in the first 2 rounds in a relatively good draft. They were able to get Rasmus Anderson in the second round as well and moved up to get Kylington.
The 2016 draft was so deep in talent that you had alot of trades at the trade deadline for rental players that commanded 2nd and 3rd round picks.
Would I trade 2015 or 2016 2nd rounder for Lazar? No.
Why do we always need a blue chip prospect? If anything, we've had our top guys become mainstays and the core of our team already (Monahan, Tkachuk and to a degree Bennett) with a pleasant surprise here (Gaudreau, hopefully Ferland).
What the Flames need is for the prospects in our system now and in the future start to compete for and take full time NHL jobs. Jankowski, Andersson and Kylington are a couple that come to mind as ideal candidates but hopefully the likes of one of Klimchuk/Poirier improving their situation.
We don't NEED more stars on this team. We need to develop more NHL players.
Is this a joke?
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Sorry, but Treliving just traded a 70% chance of a bust for a 100% certainty of one. Not a fan of this deal.
I don't agree that it's a 100% certainty of a bust, because that's just not the case. He is still 22 years old. There are plenty of players who are slow to adjust to the NHL and end up being very useful - Blake Wheeler comes to mind, or Lucic, or Ryan Kesler.
So while I agree that there's a good chance he doesn't turn into a good player for the Flames, the chance isn't 100%, and it certainly isn't anything close to being 100% chance of a bust (e.g. Lazar never contributes anything to the Flames). But I do think his chance of being an important part of the team isn't very good at all, and there's a much better chance of him being a useful bottom six player. Those aren't bad assets to have, obviously.
But you're also underselling the 2nd rounder. First, it's actually something in the vicinity of 35% of 2nd rounders becoming NHL players who get more than 100gp, but this is a weak draft, and 3rd rounders are about 30%, so maybe you're right. But let's assume this is the 20th pick of the 2nd round - around 12% of those players go on to become top six forwards or top four defensemen, and some are obviously elite (Shea Weber, Cammalleri, Duncan Keith, Jason Pominville, P.K. Subban, Patrice Bergeron, Zdeno Chara, Paul Statsny or the aforementioned Lucic were all drafted around this range). So you're also giving up a somewhat remote chance to draft a high end talent or even a legitimate superstar franchise piece. And while 12% or so isn't great, you can't win the lottery if you don't have a ticket.
That's why I don't really like the deal. I don't hate it, but players like the guy Lazar is likely to end up being (if he doesn't bust and does indeed end up being useful to the Flames) are easier to find. The only way to get a Patrice Bergeron or Duncan Keith is to play the lottery that is the NHL draft, and hope your number comes up.
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That's a double minor for him now that he's playing in Calgary.
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No, he's not part of the system unless he spends the rest of the year or a good portion of it in the minors. He's got 170 games of nhl experience, he's not a prospect anymore, he's an NHL player. So while he may be a contributing roster player, he's not part of the prospect pool of the team, which isn't deep enough, which is why the Flames traded for Lazar. I think part of the assumption here has to be that the Flames at this point don't plan on graduating anyone from the minors onto the main roster at the centre position. The Flames now Monahan, Bennett, Backlund, Stajan and Lazar in the lineup as centres, with a throwaway like Hamilton capable of playing that position, and under contract, as well. I hope the acquisition of Lazar means the Flames will be moving on from Stajan in short order, but I'm not convinced that is possible.
As for the second paragraph, it's not that I think the Flames were in the position to draft an exceptional player or make an exceptional trade, BUT, not having that 2nd round asset prevents you from being involved in that exceptional trade unless you want to move something even more valuable than a second. If the Flames did not have that 2nd round draft pick heading into the draft they may not have been able to capitalize on the hamilton deal.
If the Flames are looking at Duchene or Landeskog in the offseason and someone offers a 1st and two 3rds, I want the Flames to be able to beat that with a 1st and a 2nd offer because they have multiple second rounders instead of none.
I am stoked on the potential for Lazar to be a bottom 6 centre for the Flames making less than 1.5 million, but the Flames definitely lost some flexibility today and the situation does not look great heading into the draft, regardless of how weak, to augment the prospect system that is badly in need of another blue chipper.
If you think a mid to late first and two 2nds "in this draft" is going to land a top line player, I think your read is way off.
What you're suggesting could be applied to any trade. Wait, save the asset, because an even better trade might come up.
Or, it might not.
This one did, and if you listened to the extensive coverage of Treliving explaining how much time and resources were put into scouting Curtis and making this calculated determination... it's tough to think it's as misguided as you seem to be suggesting.
With how poor this draft is, if we are making a deal with someone and are one asset short, we have a series of prospects and future picks more valuable than that mid to late 2nd in 2017.
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