[Trade] Flames Acquire Michael Stone From Arizona for Draft Picks

[Vinny01]

I think Stone will get a long look with Brodie but maybe not right away. If he plays tomorrow I see him with Bartkowski as both players are still learning the system obviously.

I always thought Stone was a more realistic offseason target than Alzner due to cost of contract. Flames will get to test drive Stone for 23 games and hopefully the playoffs and they will know if he is worth keeping or not. Rather give up the one pick then give Stone a long term deal and have it be a dud. Also if it works out well I have no problem giving up both picks

[MarkGio]

Originally Posted by AC

http://www.tsn.ca/concerns-about-nhl...merge-1.609388

Said by Daly, not Bettman but:

Thanks A/C. I didn't know it was a first round pick, so that's really steep. But it's clear the league will hammer down on those situations. If the Flames traded for Stone with the intentions of signing him (as indicated by the conditions in the trade) then they would be hard pressed to wait until after the expansion with the type of contract that looks like expansion draft circumvention.

[Racki]

I think Stone will be very motivated to remain here after this season. It will make his wife's life so much easier to have her parents and family around to help with their infant twins. These guys are just people at the end of the day and just as it is for many of us, "happy wife, happy life."

[MarkGio]

Originally Posted by MisterJoji

Okay Bettman, good luck trying to enforce that. In no way are any teams obligated to sign their UFA's before the expansion draft. LV already gets an early 48 hour window to negotiate with UFA's and none of those UFA's are obligated to sign with Vegas either and can sign with whomever they want after the draft. I can see it now:

Bettman: "Mr. Stone you are to sign with LV this summer, no ifs ands or buts."

Stone: "Go #### yourself"

Calgary re-signs Stone after the expansion draft.

Bettman: "Calgary you will be punished for signing a UFA who was fully allowed to sign with any team they wish."

Treliving: "Prove collusion. Also, go #### yourself."

Bettman is such an ass.

Very scriptive and imaginative. Stone doesn't have to sign with Vegas to have a backdoor deal with the Flames.

Let's say several teams complained that Stone was unusually unreasonable in his contract negotiations, despite being a free agent (not the most saught after one either) in need of a contract, only to sign with the Flames for less money or less term that what was offered elsewhere. Given we know the Flames intend to sign him, there is circumstancial evidence that suggests the Flames circumvented the draft.

Now since when did the NHL need proof for anything they did? Did they let Kovalchuk prove he wouldn't retire at 45 yrs old? No, it was circumstantial. Did they prove Wideman wasn't cognitively responsible for his actions last year? This isnt a court of law, it's the court of the NHL. And any suspension, dirty play, and John Scott ballot will tell you the NHL doesn't give a #### about what's beyond a reasonable doubt.

[Jason14h]

I think the NHL is more concerned about stars, not 4th pairing d.

But they do hate the Flames!

[MisterJoji]

Originally Posted by MarkGio

Very scriptive and imaginative. Stone doesn't have to sign with Vegas to have a backdoor deal with the Flames.

Let's say several teams complained that Stone was unusually unreasonable in his contract negotiations, despite being a free agent (not the most saught after one either) in need of a contract, only to sign with the Flames for less money or less term that what was offered elsewhere. Given we know the Flames intend to sign him, there is circumstancial evidence that suggests the Flames circumvented the draft.

Now since when did the NHL need proof for anything they did? Did they let Kovalchuk prove he wouldn't retire at 45 yrs old? No, it was circumstantial. Did they prove Wideman wasn't cognitively responsible for his actions last year? This isnt a court of law, it's the court of the NHL. And any suspension, dirty play, and John Scott ballot will tell you the NHL doesn't give a #### about what's beyond a reasonable doubt.

Again, if he wants to stay here given his familial connections and hopefully a great showing, why wouldn't he take less to re-sign here? The NHL will have zero proof that this was a result of collusion vs. a player just wanting to give his team a quality deal. This is a lot of hot air that will be impossible enforce by the NHL. An unrestricted free agent is under no obligation to sign a deal before the expansion draft and can decide to sign for whatever dollar amount for whatever reason they want.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by MarkGio

Very scriptive and imaginative. Stone doesn't have to sign with Vegas to have a backdoor deal with the Flames.

Let's say several teams complained that Stone was unusually unreasonable in his contract negotiations, despite being a free agent (not the most saught after one either) in need of a contract, only to sign with the Flames for less money or less term that what was offered elsewhere. Given we know the Flames intend to sign him, there is circumstancial evidence that suggests the Flames circumvented the draft.

Now since when did the NHL need proof for anything they did? Did they let Kovalchuk prove he wouldn't retire at 45 yrs old? No, it was circumstantial. Did they prove Wideman wasn't cognitively responsible for his actions last year? This isnt a court of law, it's the court of the NHL. And any suspension, dirty play, and John Scott ballot will tell you the NHL doesn't give a #### about what's beyond a reasonable doubt.

You are making too big of a leap. What would constitute "unreasonable in his contract demands"? Russell this past off-season apparently had many suitors, but his 'unreasonable contract demands' made him a very late signing at a dollar figure/term that was much less than what was rumored. It happens all the time.

The league will not bat an eye if Stone is still a UFA until after the expansion draft, and then quickly re-signs. They would investigate if it was a Thornton or similar high-profile player, but even then, it is something that is difficult to prove without one of the parties involved admitting to it.

Also, if Stone is indeed selected by Vegas, then that is ok too. I like the trade and it gives the Flames better depth, but it isn't a huge loss to see him leave either. This was a solid move to help shore-up the defence without overspending or having to worry about the expansion draft.

[Chingas]

The conditional pick could be argued that the flames aren't necessarily planning on signing him. Seems like something the coyote would ask for not us offering. The conditional provides zero support to that argument.

[Yrebmi]

I can't say I have ever watched Stone with intent, but just looking at stats it's interesting.

Two Defensemen

D1. 6'3" 205lb 332 Career games. 12G, 71A, 83P 192PIM 24yo
D2. 6'3" 210lb 324 Career games. 24G, 72A, 96P 190PIM 26yo

Seem really similar stat wise.
D2 is Micheal Stone, and D1 was recently traded for Taylor Hall.

[foshizzle11]

Anyone who can play 20 plus minutes and has over 300 games played in the NHL has got to be better than what Wideman brings. If this gets Wideman in the press box, then I couldn't be happier. I can't stand watching his lack luster effort and boneheaded plays anymore. I cringe every single time he is on the ice. I was never a Wideman hater, but this year is just so bad he has got to go. I feel so bad for anyone who has to partner with him, it must be so frustrating. You probably love the guy as a teammate (as the person he is off the ice) but when you have to play with him this year, the guys have got to wonder what the coaches are thinking at this point in the season.

I haven't really seen Stone play, but from what I have read I think he has to be an upgrade at this point. He is still young and hopefully his injury last season isn't still affecting him. My only fear is this could turn out to be a Jokipakka type deal too, ie not as exciting as we though. We will see.

Good move by BT again, the salary retained is pretty good for what we had to give up.

Yrebmi, those are some interesting stats...what about advanced stats and defensive stats?

[Flamenfame]

Stone is better than his season has stated , he checked out after seeing another long losing season with the desert dogs

[MarkGio]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

You are making too big of a leap. What would constitute "unreasonable in his contract demands"? Russell this past off-season apparently had many suitors, but his 'unreasonable contract demands' made him a very late signing at a dollar figure/term that was much less than what was rumored. It happens all the time.

The league will not bat an eye if Stone is still a UFA until after the expansion draft, and then quickly re-signs. They would investigate if it was a Thornton or similar high-profile player, but even then, it is something that is difficult to prove without one of the parties involved admitting to it.

Also, if Stone is indeed selected by Vegas, then that is ok too. I like the trade and it gives the Flames better depth, but it isn't a huge loss to see him leave either. This was a solid move to help shore-up the defence without overspending or having to worry about the expansion draft.

Again, the NHL can and has made assumptions. What's unreasonable in my opinion is irrelevant because the NHL will do what they want. If they suspect circumvention, they will enforce it if they feel it's worthwhile. Vegas just dropped 500 million and the league certainly prefers to attract such investors, not deter them.

And they do care about Vegas drafting the best team, not just about star players being exempt. They want them to be competitive. If the Flames maintain a 7-3-1 protection model, and then sign Stone after the expansion draft, that doesn't mean Vegas lost out on Stone, that means Vegas lost out on Frolik or Bennett at the draft, which is what the league probably does cares about.

But there is one thing to consider, the Flames could've signed Stone with the intention of exposing him anyways (which is a bit of a wasted 5th), or otherwise feel he wouldnt get drafted anyways. Or they had no intention of signing him despite the condition of the pick.

[MarkGio]

Originally Posted by MisterJoji

Again, if he wants to stay here given his familial connections and hopefully a great showing, why wouldn't he take less to re-sign here? The NHL will have zero proof that this was a result of collusion vs. a player just wanting to give his team a quality deal. This is a lot of hot air that will be impossible enforce by the NHL. An unrestricted free agent is under no obligation to sign a deal before the expansion draft and can decide to sign for whatever dollar amount for whatever reason they want.

Anything is possible to enforce by the league with absolutely no recourse or need of proof. There was no proof when they took away Jerseys first rounder with the Kovy contract. It's their league and can enforce it any way they want.

[the2bears]

Originally Posted by MarkGio

Anything is possible to enforce by the league with absolutely no recourse or need of proof. There was no proof when they took away Jerseys first rounder with the Kovy contract. It's their league and can enforce it any way they want.

I would expect there's a proper procedure for deciding such matters, something not nearly so arbitrary as you suggest.

[MarkGio]

Originally Posted by the2bears

I would expect there's a proper procedure for deciding such matters, something not nearly so arbitrary as you suggest.

Have you not been following the NHL for any period of time? Seriously look at how they hand out suspensions!! If the choas that is the player safety department isn't arbitrary, then I don't know what is. One guy gets 1 game for head shots, another gets 10. I could EASILY believe the league lacks any procedure for anything they do, lol.

Look at the all-star game. They tried to squeeze John Scott out after he was legitimately voted using THEIR system, only to have failed completely. Actually, look at any decision the league generally makes. Lol.

[ResAlien]

Not for nothing but I don't think our management is quite that incompetent. If they were truly worried about losing their first because of this fantasy world UFA signing / expansion draft circumvention they'd probably have traded the first to get a better player. Or maybe Treliving is simply a riverboat gambler playing loose and fast with picks and contracts. Yeehaw! *pew pew*

[the2bears]

Originally Posted by MarkGio

Have you not been following the NHL for any period of time? Seriously look at how they hand out suspensions!! If the choas that is the player safety department isn't arbitrary, then I don't know what is. One guy gets 1 game for head shots, another gets 10. I could EASILY believe the league lacks any procedure for anything they do, lol.

Look at the all-star game. They tried to squeeze John Scott out after he was legitimately voted using THEIR system, only to have failed completely. Actually, look at any decision the league generally makes. Lol.

And there it is, the "do you even watch" argument.

Nothing to do with player safety at all, unless you think the board of governors make those judgements?

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

Tunnel vision with a sprinkle of group think has been an issue with the hockey analytics community since it's inception.

I'm reasoonably well versed and I couldn't agree more.

for example:

The Panthers had good underlying numbers but a bad record and they all said "They're just being unlucky". Now the Panthers are doing well despite their underlying numbers plummeting and they all high five each other like they've beaten Steve Simmons at pong. The group think is next level with these guys.

You want advancement in analytics? Start arguing their merits with each other

[Alberta_Beef]

Originally Posted by MarkGio

Have you not been following the NHL for any period of time? Seriously look at how they hand out suspensions!! If the choas that is the player safety department isn't arbitrary, then I don't know what is. One guy gets 1 game for head shots, another gets 10. I could EASILY believe the league lacks any procedure for anything they do, lol.

Look at the all-star game. They tried to squeeze John Scott out after he was legitimately voted using THEIR system, only to have failed completely. Actually, look at any decision the league generally makes. Lol.

How many times have they stripped teams of first round picks? Once that I can recall. How many times was it unjust? None.

Things to do with suspensions and the all-star game have absolutely nothing to do with this.

[dying4acup]

This expansion fear and under the table deal argument is ridiculous.

Say the Flames offer Stone a 3yr/12M contract, and Stone asks for a promise that the Flames will protect him in expansion.

The Flames say "Hell No"

No contract is signed.

Day after the draft, Stones agent asks if the deal is still on the table.

Flames say yes.

Contract is signed.

No under the table stuff.

No good agent is going to let his client sign a contract before the draft without a guarantee that the player will be protected. Just good business.