[Rumour] Friedman: UPD: Flames looking for a winger pref with edge and maybe a goalie

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by VladtheImpaler

The issue might be that we are terrible at developing players.

I'll grant that this is a real possibility since a lot of players that graduated never spent time in the minors. However, it's a little hard to judge when the Bouma's, Ferland's, and Hathaway's make the jump, and the top draft picks move directly into top 6 roles. I think the lower draft picks are always going to be long-shots to make the NHL, but then we still get guys like Brodie and Gaudreau who are top players from the middle rounds, and Brodie DID spend a decent amount of time in the minors.

I would have to see how we compare to other clubs over the past 5 years in terms of drafting and developing. Any data before that would be moot.

[calgaryblood]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

Rittich? That's an experiment I'm not willing to try unless there's an injury. Between Elliott and Johnson we've received mostly solid NHL goaltending, and both of those guys are used to NHL rinks. Rittich is playing his first pro season in N.A. and has good numbers in Stockton in 18 games despite adjusting to the angles of a smaller rink, but that's not enough reason to dump one of our current NHL goalies just to give him a shot. Ortio had a .893 Sv% and a 3.36 GAA in Stockton last year without the atrocious Hartley system, and they STILL gave him a ton of games down the stretch to show what he could do. The Flames didn't give him a contract and neither did any other NHL team, so I think that's a pretty poor example.

I'm not convinced by your arguments, and you failed to adequately address any of mine. I stand by what I said, young players are getting opportunities on this team, but most of them just aren't good enough for the NHL...at least not yet. Like it or not, the veterans are still better than any of the farm hands this season.

Aren't you the guy who started a thread a few weeks ago and said you'd like Rittich to get called up and get a chance? What's changed since then?

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by calgaryblood

Aren't you the guy who started a thread a few weeks ago and said you'd like Rittich to get called up and get a chance? What's changed since then?

Nope. That wasn't me. Not sure who that was.

Edit: You're probably referring to my rant thread. I was acknowledging that Elliott isn't an answer long term. I still believe that. I also thought we had no shot at the playoffs then, so getting rid of him was right at the time. Things have changed and we likely need to keep both veteran goalies around the rest of the year.

[Lanny_McDonald]

@CaliPanthersFan

I don't think you're acknowledging player growth and development. Players need to play at the level you expect them to play at or they are never going to meet the challenge. When you call a player up there is an adjustment and learning period. How long do you push that adjustment period off, because at some point, players will simply adapt to the level they are playing at and plateau.

You also don't have to be a "dominant" player in the minors before moving up to the NHL. We're not looking for top line, top line talent. We're looking for guys with the skill to compliment the players we already have. We have those complimentary skills in the minors IMO. I would much rather watch a kid with promise step into the lineup and make mistakes he will learn from than have a veteran who makes the same mistakes and doesn't learn jack, because that is the player he is.

We're talking about veterans that are proving they can't play and can't contribute in the position or role they are in, but are kept around simply because of their status and value of contract. My point is that if these guys can't contribute to a winner, what do you have to lose by replacing them with a kid with promise? We are already a ####ty hockey team that is boring as hell to watch. What, are you afraid we'll get ####tier and less interesting to watch? I'd rather watch the youngsters fail than watch these veterans fail and drag our promising players with them.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

Brian Burke is not the GM.

I'm surprised at how many people still think he runs the day to day and makes roster decisions. He's pretty much a consultant at this point.

Brian Burke sets the culture of the organization. He hired a guy with a similar mindset, and so on. Burke's influence is still substantial. That would be like saying that Murray Edwards no longer has influence in Calgary because he lives in London and is more consultative in his actions.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

@ New Era.

I get what you're saying, but I think there's enough players developing at the NHL level: Bennett, Tkachuk, Ferland, Jokipakka...hell even Monahan and Gaudreau to some extent...are all still learning how to play in the NHL and aren't a finished product. If you don't surround them with consistent veteran NHLers, the entire team will fall apart. There always needs to be a balance.

The other point is that young players can still learn a lot in the AHL. I don't see anyone plateauing down there as most of them are still really young, and there aren't a lot of veteran AHLers on the roster. This younger lineup occurred after Treliving cleaned house of a lot of plateauing or poor prospects in favor of playing time for the young guys. It's been a season of streaks for the Heat, indicating that consistent play for the majority of the team is an issue. You can't bring guys up to the NHL if they aren't already giving you consistent play.

If you're bored watching the Flames, pick another team to watch this year. I'd rather watch boring games that keep this team in the playoff picture than watch highlight reel plays that end up in loss after loss, putting us in the basement. They're still far better than last year's #### show.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by New Era

I'm actually sick of management who believe it is better to recycle other people's crap rather than give your own prospects a chance to perform. And I'm not talking about giving a guy 7 minutes a night, a game every three or four, then dispatching them to the minors, all the whole sitting on useless garbage in guise of veterans. How the hell will you ever know what you have unless you give the players a chance? I think if you give Kulak the Wideman ice time, this is a better team. If you give Jankowski the Stajan ice time, this is better team. If you give Hathaway the Bouma ice time, this is a better hockey team. Why do we continue to bring in management who have this lack of faith in young players?

What? No.

[calgaryblood]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

Nope. That wasn't me. Not sure who that was.

Edit: You're probably referring to my rant thread. I was acknowledging that Elliott isn't an answer long term. I still believe that. I also thought we had no shot at the playoffs then, so getting rid of him was right at the time. Things have changed and we likely need to keep both veteran goalies around the rest of the year.

We are pretty much in the exact same position since you said that. I don't believe you're being genuine in all your positions. You wanted to dump Elliott and give a young goalie a chance. I agree with that.

Also, Hathaway is a much better player than Bouma, it really isn't close even totally ignoring that Hathaway scores at a better point pace than Bouma. Bouma does PK a lot but I don't think he's that good unless he's blocking shots with his face. His positioning isn't the greatest on the PK. Hathaway hits harder, plays with more energy and always seems to be involved one way or another.

[Flash Walken]

The issue is that until recently the flames have not been in a position to draft safe players in the same rounds where they draft high risk/high reward picks.

Kylington being an example if a high risk pick while also being one of the team's better prospects.

When you only have say 6 picks in 7 rounds or don't have multiple picks until the third or fourth round it dissuades you from taking a riskier player and not having them pay off. This is where the example of Lucic being picked with Boston's second second round pick. Take a flyer on a guy with special ability because you've already picked a guy you believe to be a safer bet.

The flames will never have a large enough stable of quality prospects until they get serious about acquiring multiple picks in the top 4 rounds every year.

[CliffFletcher]

The fortunes of the Flames won't turn around until the team can regularly graduate effective NHLers from their system. They're not yet doing that. It's only four years into the rebuild, so we should show some patience. But if the franchise doesn't start showing something from its 2nd round and late 1st round picks within the next few years, changing goalies and replacing coaches isn't going to matter much. You can't compete in the NHL today paying $3 mil and $4 mil for depth players.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by New Era

@CaliPanthersFan

I don't think you're acknowledging player growth and development. Players need to play at the level you expect them to play at or they are never going to meet the challenge. When you call a player up there is an adjustment and learning period. How long do you push that adjustment period off, because at some point, players will simply adapt to the level they are playing at and plateau.

You also don't have to be a "dominant" player in the minors before moving up to the NHL. We're not looking for top line, top line talent. We're looking for guys with the skill to compliment the players we already have. We have those complimentary skills in the minors IMO. I would much rather watch a kid with promise step into the lineup and make mistakes he will learn from than have a veteran who makes the same mistakes and doesn't learn jack, because that is the player he is.

We're talking about veterans that are proving they can't play and can't contribute in the position or role they are in, but are kept around simply because of their status and value of contract. My point is that if these guys can't contribute to a winner, what do you have to lose by replacing them with a kid with promise? We are already a ####ty hockey team that is boring as hell to watch. What, are you afraid we'll get ####tier and less interesting to watch? I'd rather watch the youngsters fail than watch these veterans fail and drag our promising players with them.

This. You can't just simmer in the minors forever because most of the mistakes players make when they do come up is because the speed, size, intensity, and smarts of NHLer has an adjustment period that is a lot longer than it is given credit for. Cali, you said Kulak was still making similar mistakes to the start of the year? Well Jake Muzzin was still making the same mistakes he made two years prior, before his emergence as one of the better D in the league. If you can't be patient in under 25 players who show the potential to adapt, then you'll never realize that potential.

If you look at Treliving's tenure, the Bollig, Setoguchi, Chiasson, Brouwer, Raymonds he has brought in simply haven't definitively done enough to keep prospects playing well, out of the lineup, other than "being veterans" and put on a pedestal solely for that reason.

Playing in the minors is a grind as it is, but knowing that you won't get a chance has to be absolutely draining, which I'm sure explains why Baertschi and Reinhart wanted out and why Poirier/Arnold and co have managed to produce less and less every year. It's not even a character or toughness thing, it's human nature to need a carrot in front of you. Optics matter to these kids.

Jankowski has clearly been the best player on the Heat all year and he barely got a full NHL game to show what he could do and was sent down without much of an opportunity. I don't know but a whole team that was pretty often outshooting opponents en route to dominating wins is suddenly looking like the AHL version of the 2014-15 Buffalo Sabres, and there's no McDavid that they're tanking for. Maybe it's just a co-incidence but I think a lot of our prospects have flat out quit. Which makes sense if the talent simply isn't there, but it was only a while ago where Poirier looked like he had all the tools to be a top six forward and Shinkaruk had a decent NHL stint of his own.

Reality is, this team isn't as young as we claim it is. The Leafs are a young team. The Flames? Our top line is carried by a polished veteran (Backlund). Our entire blue line right now has only one player younger than 27 (Hamilton, who is an early bloomer that made the NHL at age 19). Many teams ahead of us in the standings are younger on a whole - Columbus, Ottawa, Toronto, Edmonton and their success is not by chance.

[Enoch Root]

Lots of great posts over the last while here, without anyone attacking anyone else, which is great to see.

Far too many things to comment on, but generally, the idea that the Flames aren't giving the kids a chance is a joke. Who has shown that they deserve to be given a chance but are being held back?

Jankowski is probably the closest to being ready, but he is in his first year of pro and still has plenty to learn. I think he is where he should be right now, and he will get his chance soon enough.

Someone mentioned Riddich. Sorry, but that's ridiculous. In the summer and training camp, he was viewed, almost unanimously, as the worst goalie there, and had no business wearing the jersey. Then he goes to Stockton and plays great for 10 games or so, and a bunch of people want him elevated to the big club. Give your heads a shake - if he can show me consistency in the AHL for the better parts of TWO seasons, THEN we can talk about bringing him up.

And those are the best arguments that the 'give the kids a chance' crowd can come up with.

I want to see more youth in the lineup just as much as everyone else does. But it has to be earned.

Someone (killer_carlson maybe?) had a great post a while back where ne listed all the current prospects and suggested that we need a couple of them to step up and bring their game to the next level. That is exactly right. And so far, none of them have.

[RedWinger89]

Barring a playoff berth, Trev is a goner. Making Glen G coach, goalie situation ( fair or unfair), Gio contract will be his downfall.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

This. You can't just simmer in the minors forever because most of the mistakes players make when they do come up is because the speed, size, intensity, and smarts of NHLer has an adjustment period that is a lot longer than it is given credit for. Cali, you said Kulak was still making similar mistakes to the start of the year? Well Jake Muzzin was still making the same mistakes he made two years prior, before his emergence as one of the better D in the league. If you can't be patient in under 25 players who show the potential to adapt, then you'll never realize that potential.

If you look at Treliving's tenure, the Bollig, Setoguchi, Chiasson, Brouwer, Raymonds he has brought in simply haven't definitively done enough to keep prospects playing well, out of the lineup, other than "being veterans" and put on a pedestal solely for that reason.

Playing in the minors is a grind as it is, but knowing that you won't get a chance has to be absolutely draining, which I'm sure explains why Baertschi and Reinhart wanted out and why Poirier/Arnold and co have managed to produce less and less every year. It's not even a character or toughness thing, it's human nature to need a carrot in front of you. Optics matter to these kids.

Jankowski has clearly been the best player on the Heat all year and he barely got a full NHL game to show what he could do and was sent down without much of an opportunity. I don't know but a whole team that was pretty often outshooting opponents en route to dominating wins is suddenly looking like the AHL version of the 2014-15 Buffalo Sabres, and there's no McDavid that they're tanking for. Maybe it's just a co-incidence but I think a lot of our prospects have flat out quit. Which makes sense if the talent simply isn't there, but it was only a while ago where Poirier looked like he had all the tools to be a top six forward and Shinkaruk had a decent NHL stint of his own.

Reality is, this team isn't as young as we claim it is. The Leafs are a young team. The Flames? Our top line is carried by a polished veteran (Backlund). Our entire blue line right now has only one player younger than 27 (Hamilton, who is an early bloomer that made the NHL at age 19). Many teams ahead of us in the standings are younger on a whole - Columbus, Ottawa, Toronto, Edmonton and their success is not by chance.

I don't get your blueline quote you need to move the goal posts a bit because I see the following:

Hamilton 23
Brodie 26
Jokipakka 25

Wideman sucks we all get that and I don't know why GULUTZAN plays him so much but you seem to be blaming Treliving for that. Remember Wideman has a full c that was signed by our previous awful GM.

I don't think it is fair to blame Treliving for veterans being played that is the coaches call.

The Flames are a young team in the fact their top players for the most part are young. Brodie is 26, Hamilton 23, Gaudreau 23, Monahan 22, Bennett 20, Tkachuk 19. All but one of those players was drafted by the Flames.

Wideman and Engellend are 2 of the older players on the roster both 34 and both likely are gone over the summer and will be replaced by younger players.

I think the talk about gifting young players spots sounds very Oileresque. Wideman could eat popcorn every game and should more often but again that is on Gulutzan not Treliving.

[BigFlameDog]

Originally Posted by RedWinger89

Barring a playoff berth, Trev is a goner. Making Glen G coach, goalie situation ( fair or unfair), Gio contract will be his downfall.

Haha..no. Nice try though.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Lots of great posts over the last while here, without anyone attacking anyone else, which is great to see.

Far too many things to comment on, but generally, the idea that the Flames aren't giving the kids a chance is a joke. Who has shown that they deserve to be given a chance but are being held back?

I think that's the way to do this ...

Jankowski - first year, but developing
Klimchuk - finding it this year, needs to stay on the path
Magiapane - first year
Anderssen - first year
Kylington - young and developing
Shinkaruk - has had a look, not lighting it up
Gillies - missed last year, needs to play
Poirier - seems to have lost it, hasn't deserved a promotion
Kulak - has had looks, hasn't seized it
Wotherspoon - see Kulak

I just don't see the guy being held back at this point ... and I really dislike Wideman!

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by RedWinger89

Barring a playoff berth, Trev is a goner. Making Glen G coach, goalie situation ( fair or unfair), Gio contract will be his downfall.

Terrible decision by the organization if that is true. Gio contract was considered a big win at the time considering he was looking for Subban money and term. The goalie situation has been a downfall but he got a lot of praise for his summer acquisitions at the time. Also Elliott and Johnson is a big upgrade on Hiller and Ramo.

Treliving took over a decent situation but has only had 3 seasons to try and build a winner. The team made the playoffs once and is improving this year compared to last year. Gulutzan looks like a mistake but he should be allowed to correct that before he is fired.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

I don't get your blueline quote you need to move the goal posts a bit because I see the following:

Hamilton 23
Brodie 26
Jokipakka 25

My mistake, I had it in my mind that Brodie already turned 27.

Either way, this was our blue in the last game:

32-23
26-33
28-33

That is not a young blue line in any way. An the one player younger than Brodie is a player the Bruins took a chance on, as they are doing right now with 19 year old Brandon Carlo. Would Brandon Carlo be a Calgary Flame or back in Junior if the Flames drafted him? I think the latter.

Wideman sucks we all get that and I don't know why GULUTZAN plays him so much but you seem to be blaming Treliving for that.

I have no problem with Wideman at present, actually. he's a serviceable four/five who has his bad games and his okay games. He's old AF though, with no replacement in sight as there is no way Andersson will get an opportunity to be our 6 or 5 next year no matter how well he plays.

I don't think it is fair to blame Treliving for veterans being played that is the coaches call.

The coach plays the players on the roster that the GM gives the coach.

The Flames are a young team in the fact their top players for the most part are young. Brodie is 26, Hamilton 23, Gaudreau 23, Monahan 22, Bennett 20, Tkachuk 19. All but one of those players was drafted by the Flames.

Brodie nor Backlund are "young" players. Gaudreau and Monahan are in their prime at this point. That leaves Hamilton, Bennett, and Tkachuk. Two high draft picks and a player where another team took all the development risk.

The Flames might have a pretty young core, but they are not a young team. The average Forward line age or D-pair age is NHL average or older. How many lines can you name that are a young line? I can name Gaudreau-Monahan-X and even then the X is in his 30s most of the time. Compare that to the players flanking rookie Auston Matthews, 23 year old rookie Connor Brown and 24 year old rookie Zach Hyman for some perspective on what actually consistutes "young" in today's NHL. And that's a good Leafs team, I'd bet on them to beat us in a playoff series despite their youth.

Wideman and Engellend are 2 of the older players on the roster both 34 and both likely are gone over the summer and will be replaced by younger players.

Will be repalced by who, exactly? More third-rate veterans, pushing the endless cycle of too much cap space into mediocre roster filler that prevents teams from ever being truly competitive. Knowing Treliving he will bring another underwhelming player whose team considers him an expendable cap casualty (think Alzner) and this cycle will continue.

I think the talk about gifting young players spots sounds very Oileresque.

The team 10 points ahead of us in the standings with a younger roster?

[RedWinger89]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

Terrible decision by the organization if that is true. Gio contract was considered a big win at the time considering he was looking for Subban money and term. The goalie situation has been a downfall but he got a lot of praise for his summer acquisitions at the time. Also Elliott and Johnson is a big upgrade on Hiller and Ramo.

Treliving took over a decent situation but has only had 3 seasons to try and build a winner. The team made the playoffs once and is improving this year compared to last year. Gulutzan looks like a mistake but he should be allowed to correct that before he is fired.

I don't necessarily think it's fair. Maybe Burke & Murray Edwards want to have all the say...

[spennywalks]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

Terrible decision by the organization if that is true. Gio contract was considered a big win at the time considering he was looking for Subban money and term. The goalie situation has been a downfall but he got a lot of praise for his summer acquisitions at the time. Also Elliott and Johnson is a big upgrade on Hiller and Ramo.

Treliving took over a decent situation but has only had 3 seasons to try and build a winner. The team made the playoffs once and is improving this year compared to last year. Gulutzan looks like a mistake but he should be allowed to correct that before he is fired.

really dont think the GIO contract was ever seen as a big win.... when your paying a 32 year old dman over 6 mil for 6 years thats not a win i dont care how good he did in the past, this contract will hurt the flames down the road