[News] Sportsnet Piece about Flames and the deadline

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by flambers

Personally i would not be surprised if the Flames stand pat at this deadline and make zero moves.

Based on the history of sucktitude of the franchise this wouldn't surprise me either.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Based on the history of sucktitude of the franchise this wouldn't surprise me either.

They are perpetually meh.

[TheAlpineOracle]

The Flames just need to ride this season out at this point, let some contracts expire this off-season, hope they gain even more space with someone picking up a Stajan/Brouwer in the expansion draft, and use the cap space they acquire to add a goalie and a first line RW.

None of our expiring assets have any value, and I see no point in tanking given how bad the draft is and our current place in the standings. With some decent goaltending, this team still has a shot at the postseason.

[t0rrent98]

It seems every year the Flames put themselves in this position. Can't tell whether or not we are buyers or sellers until you reach the deadline.

[Flash Walken]

The most recent playoff success came in a season where the Flames sold expiring assets that didn't have a future of the team regardless of their playoff position.

In fact, they may not have even reached the post season that year had they not sold off assets that were clogging up spots on the team for different/better players.

Is there a better lesson in recent history for the organization like that, or was it preferable when the Flames re-signed Tim Jackman on deadline day like a group of idiots?

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Sell! Sell! Sell!

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Interesting point about McPhee having a history with Brouwer. I had thought it unlikely the Flames would expose him for the expansion draft (or that he'd be taken), but now I'm starting to wonder.

Unless he suddenly shows up for the stretch run I think it is a no brainer to expose him and try and get out of that contract. He has played well in two games this year. That is terrible.

[madmike]

Good piece, but not a shock. The team has outplayed most of their opponents lately, but if the goaltending continues to stink it doesn't really matter.

[Macho0978]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

Unless he suddenly shows up for the stretch run I think it is a no brainer to expose him and try and get out of that contract. He has played well in two games this year. That is terrible.

I think they should keep Brouwer. Lots on here were saying that Frolik was a negative value contract after his first year in Calgary. He's been one the best Flames this year after a disappointing first season

We need to sell our UFA's and Bouma and Stajan. If we get anything for these guys and move out the 2 non UFA's we could easily pick up a top 4 dman and top 6 forward. Assuming we address the goalies after we have the guys in front of them set

[Jason14h]

The problem is, do we really gain anything by trading for a few 3rd round picks? (And please don't reply a few 3rd round picks!)

These picks are guys who are 2-3 years away minimum. We are right on the cusp of the playoffs.

As some people have pointed out, this is the core of the team. So either:

- The core isn't good enough. Brodie and Johnny have been terrible. Gio below his standards. Monahan streaky. Bennett meh. If they are not good enough then we have to move them.

- The core is good enough, but depth is the problem. Getting 3rd round picks isn't really going to help this for UFA's. Sure I know we could package them, yada yada, but realistically these picks are geared toward years down the road

- Our roster is good enough, and our coach sucks. Fire the coach and hire Julien, oh wait, he signed, damn.

The GM is in a real tough situation. It is hard to give up on this season being close, which will make it 7 of the last 8 years missing the playoffs. Sure we all know they aren't going anywhere in the playoffs, but this is Trelivings team now. 3rd round picks aren't going to help him in 3 years when he is fired.

I don't think we have any assets that really would garner anything of a return, so I think they will sit tight unless they can make a hockey trade.

[mrdonkey]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

These picks are guys who are 2-3 years away minimum. We are right on the cusp of the playoffs.

Are we really, though? I'm having my doubts.

[Jason14h]

Are we really, though? I'm having my doubts.

We'll we are ninth so we can't get any closer!

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

The problem is, do we really gain anything by trading for a few 3rd round picks? (And please don't reply a few 3rd round picks!)

These picks are guys who are 2-3 years away minimum. We are right on the cusp of the playoffs.

A team always has to manage assets properly. Even if you believe that the Flames are on the cusp of the playoffs and about to start contending, and that these 3rd round picks are 2-3 years away at minimum, they will be assets that can help replenish the pipeline for down the road.

Chicago has been by far the best team in the NHL at recycling players and converting them into assets to help manage their cap.

There should be at least 5 fresh faces next season - including a decent RW'er, a top 4 D, a bottom-pairing D to at least replace Engelland, and at least one more goalie. That's 4 spots off the bat, with guys on the fringes like Chiasson probably not likely to be re-signed.

I would sell at this point. Keep everyone that has a contract for next season (with the exception of Bouma and Stajan - that is just too much money on the 4th line), but at least you explore trading the rest. It may not be worth it to move certain guys, but you at least should be exploring what you can get for them now to help you out tomorrow, especially if they aren't helping out much now and can't be counted on for helping out tomorrow either.

[Flash Walken]

If the Flames do not rapidly accelerate their acquisition of draft picks to fill out the system with capable depth players, this entire rebuild will be cut off at its knees before the core group ever has an opportunity to contend.

I think on a fundamental level the ownership of the organization does not understand this which is why the Flames have found themselves mired in mediocrity at best and floating down in the cellar at worst.

There is no room on the bottom pairing for even a 2 million dollar player. I have no problem with Engelland, his signing, his performance or his cap hit right now, but the Flames simply WILL NOT be contenders as long as they have more than 3 million TOTAL tied up on the third pairing.

You can't pay your 4th line centre 3.5 million dollars. you can't pay him 3 million dollars. You can't pay him 2 million unless he's the best goddamned 4th liner in the league.

The problem is, you need to have decent enough players to fill those roles internally or you'll continue to have to go out and buy them. Playing underqualified players isn't a solution either, rolling with Kulak and wotherspoon and jankowksi and shinkaruk isn't going to win the team any games. You need Ferland's and Boumas and when one of them scores 17 goals for the first time since midget hockey, you sell his RFA rights and look to draft another one.

Ferland is an example of the type of player you want/need, a guy who can play in a depth role with enough skills that he can pot 5-10 goals for you a season and bring energy and relative defensive responsibility, but who also shouldn't cost you an arm and a leg to re-sign every couple of years.

And if he gets good enough, you move him for more draft picks/prospects and start the wheel again like Chicago did with Andrew Shaw for example.

If the Flames aren't sellers at this deadline it will be a massive mis-step for the organization with huge opportunity cost consequences.

[Jason14h]

But what can we really sell? Players who aren't good enough to make our 9th place team ?

I just can't see giving up on playoffs for a 3rd rounder is a bad draft!

Sure if someone overpays like with Glencross jump on it, but this team needs to sell hope or they will find even more empty seats next year.

An extra 3rd or 4th round pick does nothing for years, if ever

[MarkGio]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

A team always has to manage assets properly. Even if you believe that the Flames are on the cusp of the playoffs and about to start contending, and that these 3rd round picks are 2-3 years away at minimum, they will be assets that can help replenish the pipeline for down the road.

Chicago has been by far the best team in the NHL at recycling players and converting them into assets to help manage their cap.

There should be at least 5 fresh faces next season - including a decent RW'er, a top 4 D, a bottom-pairing D to at least replace Engelland, and at least one more goalie. That's 4 spots off the bat, with guys on the fringes like Chiasson probably not likely to be re-signed.

I would sell at this point. Keep everyone that has a contract for next season (with the exception of Bouma and Stajan - that is just too much money on the 4th line), but at least you explore trading the rest. It may not be worth it to move certain guys, but you at least should be exploring what you can get for them now to help you out tomorrow, especially if they aren't helping out much now and can't be counted on for helping out tomorrow either.

I agree 100%

Plus sometimes a locker room is better when there's fresh faces. Sometimes different personalities jive and make a cohesive team

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

If the Flames do not rapidly accelerate their acquisition of draft picks to fill out the system with capable depth players, this entire rebuild will be cut off at its knees before the core group ever has an opportunity to contend.

I think on a fundamental level the ownership of the organization does not understand this which is why the Flames have found themselves mired in mediocrity at best and floating down in the cellar at worst.

There is no room on the bottom pairing for even a 2 million dollar player. I have no problem with Engelland, his signing, his performance or his cap hit right now, but the Flames simply WILL NOT be contenders as long as they have more than 3 million TOTAL tied up on the third pairing.

You can't pay your 4th line centre 3.5 million dollars. you can't pay him 3 million dollars. You can't pay him 2 million unless he's the best goddamned 4th liner in the league.

The problem is, you need to have decent enough players to fill those roles internally or you'll continue to have to go out and buy them. Playing underqualified players isn't a solution either, rolling with Kulak and wotherspoon and jankowksi and shinkaruk isn't going to win the team any games. You need Ferland's and Boumas and when one of them scores 17 goals for the first time since midget hockey, you sell his RFA rights and look to draft another one.

Ferland is an example of the type of player you want/need, a guy who can play in a depth role with enough skills that he can pot 5-10 goals for you a season and bring energy and relative defensive responsibility, but who also shouldn't cost you an arm and a leg to re-sign every couple of years.

And if he gets good enough, you move him for more draft picks/prospects and start the wheel again like Chicago did with Andrew Shaw for example.

If the Flames aren't sellers at this deadline it will be a massive mis-step for the organization with huge opportunity cost consequences.

Yep there are examples up and down the lineup of overpaying for depth players, a cardinal sin.

However you might be overstating the opportunity cost of not being sellers at the deadline. The guys on expiring contracts have little value IMO. Non core guys who are not on expiring contracts have limited value because they're overpaid. If you trade a core player, you create a massive hole because of the lack of organizational depth.

It all comes down to drafting and development. Plugging holes with overpaid UFA's just doesn't work.

[ASP#26525]

This has got to be the absolute worst figure I have ever seen attached to a supposedly professionally written article. Is the guy doing the figures at Sportsnet the same guy that does the stream quality? WTF is the "probability of sadness", wouldn't the subtitle suffice? And to top it off, his handle is "ineffectivemath". Doesn't sound like the best guy to be doing statistics....

And if anyone can make sense of the lines, I will give them some of the 50+cm of snow that fell in St. John's yesterday and this morning. (No snow days for the weather forecaster....)

[bubbsy]

That article wasn't all that enlightening for many of us i'm sure.

the most exciting part about it for me was how there's a connection between LV GM McPhee and brouwer.

Getting brouwer off the books would be a HUGE win at the deadline, expansion draft/offseason.

Our management really banked on this season seeing substantial improvement based on:
1) Bringing in more proven goaltenders

2) Changing coaching to be a more structured style...

3) banking on the young core continuing to lead offensively (monahan/gaudreau, to a lesser extent bennet), continued 2-way success of the top3 dmen,

Based on these 3 key things, i think they went out and grabbed brouwer to augment that top6.

All 3 have unfortunately not really panned out. They can look at the standings and strategize based on being right there in the 7-9th position. Or they can look at some of the flaws in the current roster and change their TDL plans, or rather, simply stand pat and let things play out for the season. Use the offseason to rectify things.

this lame duck GM issue we have makes me all the more uncomfortable on how this is all going to be managed.

[Buff]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

The problem is, do we really gain anything by trading for a few 3rd round picks? (And please don't reply a few 3rd round picks!)

These picks are guys who are 2-3 years away minimum. We are right on the cusp of the playoffs.

As some people have pointed out, this is the core of the team. So either:

- The core isn't good enough. Brodie and Johnny have been terrible. Gio below his standards. Monahan streaky. Bennett meh. If they are not good enough then we have to move them.

- The core is good enough, but depth is the problem. Getting 3rd round picks isn't really going to help this for UFA's. Sure I know we could package them, yada yada, but realistically these picks are geared toward years down the road

- Our roster is good enough, and our coach sucks. Fire the coach and hire Julien, oh wait, he signed, damn.

The GM is in a real tough situation. It is hard to give up on this season being close, which will make it 7 of the last 8 years missing the playoffs. Sure we all know they aren't going anywhere in the playoffs, but this is Trelivings team now. 3rd round picks aren't going to help him in 3 years when he is fired.

I don't think we have any assets that really would garner anything of a return, so I think they will sit tight unless they can make a hockey trade.

Last year the core was good enough but goaltending was abysmal and team defense wasn't much to speak about either.

They changed goaltending, changed some depth and changed coaching.

This year the core isn't good enough, goaltending is surprisingly not good enough and team play is not good enough.

The core is young. You don't yet jettison players from the core unless you can pinpoint that player as being a piece that negatively affects the team. You can add to the core, or provide better depth and leadership to help direct the core. Leadership starts with coaching.

In my mind this year's woes are on coaching.