[PGT] Coyotes 5 Flames ZERO

[MarkGio]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Uh, what if Julien doesn't want to come here?

What if the reason the Flames continue to hire retreads has beens and never was' is because the organization can't attract top candidates?

What if the reason the Flames couldn't get a decent GM for 20 years is the same reason they haven't had a decent coach save someone named Sutter in the same time period?

To me, the Flames would have to be stupid not to explore it. I think they may weight the optics heavily of firing a coach after one season, but when your 500+ million dollar franchise and 70 million in player payroll is successful based on one position, you have to at least consider your options when one the best candidates in a long time becomes available.

There are recruiters who spend a lot of time, money and resources trying to obtain the best talents. I see how this is no different

[Toonage]

Said it earlier and I'll reiterate it.

If the Flames fire Gulutzan, they'll also fire Treliving. Thats the only way a move like that could be made at this point, IMO.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by MarkGio

To me, the Flames would have to be stupid not to explore it. I think they may weight the optics heavily of firing a coach after one season, but when your 500+ million dollar franchise and 70 million in player payroll is successful based on one position, you have to at least considering your options when one the best candidates in a long time becomes available.

There are recruiters who spend a lot of time, money and resources trying to obtain the best talents. I see how this is no different

Nieuwendyk and Shanahan both turned down opportunities to manage Calgary and probably other candidates as well that we didn't hear about.

Francis seemed convinced that Boudreau would be the next coach but then he ended up in Minnesota. Did he turn down the Flames? I don't know.

The Flames once made the choice of shipping out Marc Savard over canning Gilbert. We know that was out of the hands of the GM, as Button has said publicly he was not 'allowed' to fire Gilbert.

The Flames dismal success the past 25 years is probably an indication they don't follow standard operating procedure as it is difficult to be that bad for that long. Friedman essentially confirmed that 29 other teams don't operate the way the Flames do in regards to Treliving's contract.

Basically, I think at this point the evidence is so overwhelming that a considerable part of the lack of success enjoyed by the franchise is a direct result of ownership mismanagement. If I was top of my field, which is where Julien finds himself, I wouldn't choose an employer with a history within the industry of ineptitude and interference, especially if it meant uprooting myself and moving a 4 hour flight away.

I'm just saying, if I was Claude Julien, the only way Calgary would be an option for me would come down to an exorbitant amount of money. I don't think the Flames are willing to pay a coach the 3+ million it would take to get him here like the Oilers were forced to do with MacLellan.

[kukkudo]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Uh, what if Julien doesn't want to come here?

What if the reason the Flames continue to hire retreads has beens and never was' is because the organization can't attract top candidates?

What if the reason the Flames couldn't get a decent GM for 20 years is the same reason they haven't had a decent coach save someone named Sutter in the same time period?

Everyone said that about Edmonton they ended up with decent management and a decent coach now.

Its all about the money, pay Julien 3.5-4 Million and he's here in a heartbeat. But there will be other teams looking for his services too.

[Izzle]

Originally Posted by kukkudo

Everyone said that about Edmonton they ended up with decent management and a decent coach now.

Its all about the money, pay Julien 3.5-4 Million and he's here in a heartbeat. But there will be other teams looking for his services too.

No. Edmonton got lucky with the McDavid pick. After that pick, McLellan and Chiarelli were hired.

Can't expect the same from Calgary.

[Toonage]

McLellan was hired prior to the Oilers drafting McDavid as was Chiarelli
Edit: Though it was no secret who the Oilers were going to draft at that point.

[Ashasx]

Chiarelli is still a bad GM who has fallen ass backwards into every accomplishment in his career.

[shotinthebacklund]

dont know if mentioned but,

as per steinberg, Looks like Engellund had been promoted to TJ Brodie's mate on second pairing.

About time.

[Toonage]

Re: Chiarelli
Fair enough. But he, Julien and their Bruins saved us all from a Canucks Stanley Cup. I can respect that.

[VladtheImpaler]

Julien is waiting on the dream job perhaps? The Habs. Or maybe he wants to live in Florida. Or to coach the Ca.. ec Nordiques...
I posted a few dozen posts up that the Flames never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity when it comes to coaches. But, perhaps, Flash is right, and it can also be extended to GM's. We were really lucky that we inherited Fletcher and he was able to grow in the job and also had the benefit of the highest payroll in the NHL in the late 80's. After that it's been one more-or-less buffoon after another. Some have done some good things, and we were incredibly lucky to have accidentally traded for the 2 players that saved this franchise - Iginla when we wanted Harvey, and Kiprusoff when we wanted Toskala. Otherwise, it's been a sad tale of hamster wheel mediocrity or outright buffoonery (the end of Darryl as GM, and Feaster ...). Maybe we are just cursed with rotten leadership/ownership and there is no hope at all...

[MarkGio]

Originally Posted by Toonage

Said it earlier and I'll reiterate it.

If the Flames fire Gulutzan, they'll also fire Treliving. Thats the only way a move like that could be made at this point, IMO.

I don't think thats back and white.

The one black mark on Treliving is the Gulutzan hire. And who knows what happens behind closed doors. Maybe Hartley wouldn't put Bennett in the center and the Flames truly believed they needed centre depth to win a championship. Maybe Treliving knew with how many expiring contracts that he had, he needed someone to inflate certain player stats in order to better roster moves. Or the more likely option, not a lot of good talented coaches were available, so Treliving hired a safe temporary option with the hopes that a better one becomes available.

Trelivings body of work will the determining factor as to why he's fired. The Brouwer signing. The 3-headed goalie monster. Stuff like that. I think if that body of work included firing a bad coach and hiring an elite one, then that's probably better in his favors than doing little about the causes of a struggling club. Unless of course the owners are sour about paying a salary to sit at home

[Flash Walken]

Maybe there is friction between ownership and hockey ops.

They wouldn't be the first place to remove an employee speaking truth to power because they didn't like what the employee had to say.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Nieuwendyk and Shanahan both turned down opportunities to manage Calgary and probably other candidates as well that we didn't hear about.

Francis seemed convinced that Boudreau would be the next coach but then he ended up in Minnesota. Did he turn down the Flames? I don't know.

The Flames once made the choice of shipping out Marc Savard over canning Gilbert. We know that was out of the hands of the GM, as Button has said publicly he was not 'allowed' to fire Gilbert.

The Flames dismal success the past 25 years is probably an indication they don't follow standard operating procedure as it is difficult to be that bad for that long. Friedman essentially confirmed that 29 other teams don't operate the way the Flames do in regards to Treliving's contract.

Basically, I think at this point the evidence is so overwhelming that a considerable part of the lack of success enjoyed by the franchise is a direct result of ownership mismanagement. If I was top of my field, which is where Julien finds himself, I wouldn't choose an employer with a history within the industry of ineptitude and interference, especially if it meant uprooting myself and moving a 4 hour flight away.

I'm just saying, if I was Claude Julien, the only way Calgary would be an option for me would come down to an exorbitant amount of money. I don't think the Flames are willing to pay a coach the 3+ million it would take to get him here like the Oilers were forced to do with MacLellan.

I will say the Flames did re-sign Hartley before his deal was up but I don't agree with what they are doing with Treliving. I can only assume that it's a playoffs or he's fired scenario because if making the playoffs doesn't matter then he should be signed right now. This isn't like negotiating a player contract as the term's are industry standard typically 3 years and I would imagine the money is in line with what he's currently making or maybe a little more so I don't see this as anything that would be held up by negotiations. I think this ownership group wants playoff dates in their building and probably believe the rebuild is at a stage where that should be attainable.

The Oilers last decade has been great at making us feel better about the Flames but really this is one of the least successful, sad sack organizations of the NHL going back to the early 90's. Ownership deserves a lot of blame for that but Treliving did get his chance. He really bombed on his coach hire though as that's an area you can't swing and miss as it can set your organization back as it appears to have done this season.

[Ashasx]

When did Nieuwendyk turn down an opportunity?

[Otto-matic]

Kristen Odland ‏@Kristen_Odland
I'll preface these next Tweets (direct quotes from Gulutzan) by encouraging my followers to read the entire thing, not just bits & pieces.

This is re: Gaudreau's demotion: “It wasn’t really the turnover itself. If you watched the game, it was the shift length and the change....

"We just have to learn from that. We all do, from those things. Johnny’s a really special player...

he wants to be treated like everyone else. And that’s what we do. We try and treat everyone fairly....".But there are different rules for different guys. Some guys get more leash than others. But just watch the play.”

By the way, Flames are going back to Brian Elliott tomorrow.

[Machiavelli]

Originally Posted by Otto-matic

"We just have to learn from that. We all do, from those things. Johnny’s a really special player...

he wants to be treated like everyone else. And that’s what we do. We try and treat everyone fairly....".But there are different rules for different guys. Some guys get more leash than others. But just watch the play.”

By the way, Flames are going back to Brian Elliott tomorrow.

I need to know what this means. Something the team has established? Something the players are taking on themselves?

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Machiavelli

I need to know what this means. Something the team has established? Something the players are taking on themselves?

my interpretation is you can make mistakes if you're otherwise hustling out there, but if I'm (the coach) benching you for turnovers and then for slow/bad/inadequate linechanges, well, you're going to get less leash over it.

This might be part of the reason why Wideman gets the benefit of the doubt over Hamilton. Wideman is obviously making more mistakes but the standard for Hamilton is higher because he's so obviously better.

It's one thing for wideman to be slow on a linechange because he's slow and ####ty, it's another for Hamilton to be slow on a linechange because he's young and good and fast.

My interpretation anyway.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Toonage

McLellan was hired prior to the Oilers drafting McDavid as was Chiarelli
Edit: Though it was no secret who the Oilers were going to draft at that point.

I believe that the change over in Edmonton happened right after the lottery ball dropped. Its not too hard to imagine McDavids agent phoning Edmonton and telling Katz in no uncertain terms to draft someone else if his buddies were still in charge.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I believe that the change over in Edmonton happened right after the lottery ball dropped. Its not too hard to imagine McDavids agent phoning Edmonton and telling Katz in no uncertain terms to draft someone else if his buddies were still in charge.

That team with McDavid can't win a game unless Talbot is starting. That's the best signing that organization has made in a decade.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

my interpretation is you can make mistakes if you're otherwise hustling out there, but if I'm (the coach) benching you for turnovers and then for slow/bad/inadequate linechanges, well, you're going to get less leash over it.

This might be part of the reason why Wideman gets the benefit of the doubt over Hamilton. Wideman is obviously making more mistakes but the standard for Hamilton is higher because he's so obviously better.

It's one thing for wideman to be slow on a linechange because he's slow and ####ty, it's another for Hamilton to be slow on a linechange because he's young and good and fast.

My interpretation anyway.

I actually think the opposite, and this quote falls in line with Gulutzan's last blasting in the post-game media scrum.

Remember when Ferland, Stajan and Bouma (or was it Hathaway?) took a long shift that one game, and Gulutzan came out and stated something about their lack of goal scoring, and that line should never take a long shift?

I would infer that the rules are different for the scoring lines to take a longer shift in the hopes that they get a goal, but Gaudreau's penchant for giveaways and simply not generating enough lately has made Gulutzan tighten the rope a bit when it comes to his shifts, and Gaudreau wasn't getting the message? Just my take on it anyways.

No idea where it comes to Wideman vs Hamilton. Your guess is as good as mine. Maybe Wideman's shift length is much longer because it takes him a while to skate to the bench?